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2023 Novice Hurdlers

Indeed. You'd want that for Facile Vega to even make the festival, IMO.

I'm much more inclined to go with my gut and opinion and back the race I think he'll end up in. In this case, the Ballymore.

He's a pretty rubbish price in that too given we have zero idea which race he goes too

If I hadn't already backed him I'd be leaving him alone at this stage

Something will emerge at a better price that wasn't a star in bumpers, they almost always do
 
He's a pretty rubbish price in that too given we have zero idea which race he goes too

If I hadn't already backed him I'd be leaving him alone at this stage

Something will emerge at a better price that wasn't a star in bumpers, they almost always do

Oh yeah, lots of novice hurdlers to come out, including what Willie has at home alongside FV, but if I had to pick a race for him it would be the Ballymore right now, and that is where I'm trying to get him onside for, mostly in roll ups.
 
6/4 any race is soooo short though

Nobody in their right mind would take that would they?

7 months before the race

Never jumped a hurdle in public

A division where a superstar regularly turns up out of knowhere with no proper bumper form

You'll find better 6/4 bets running at Wolverhampton on a Wednesday night

Agreed. Need to get him in a few TWAR RAB's doubles plus play Bingo with him with a single in the Ballymore. For me, he'd always be shorter on the day going for the Ballymore as opposed to the Supreme, so 4/1 over 5/2 is the play imo.
 
Oh yeah, lots of novice hurdlers to come out, including what Willie has at home alongside FV, but if I had to pick a race for him it would be the Ballymore right now, and that is where I'm trying to get him onside for, mostly in roll ups.

If and when facile vega runs in a maiden hurdle and more importantly a graded race after winning his maiden- which race distance is most likely?
if Willie doesn’t mention a specific Cheltenham target then do you think he’d shorten for both if he wins a graded race over 2 miles for example ?

2 questions there - hope you see where I’m coming from.
IMO - backing facile for the ballymore now is a gamble on Willie mentioning the race for him in his tour.
which could pay off although Willie is likely to be vague enough.
as it stands it looks to me like he’d win whichever race he runs in, but as we all know and recent posts have mentioned. There are lots of others to come out of the woodwork.
He is racing royalty though so it’ll take an accident or something decent to beat him.
 
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If and when facile vega runs in a maiden hurdle and more importantly a graded race after winning his maiden- which race distance is most likely?
if Willie doesn’t mention a specific Cheltenham target then do you think he’d shorten for both if he wins a graded race over 2 miles for example ?

Good questions.

I can see him very much running in 2m races (potentially over further in a maiden), a bit like Sir Gerhard did, leading up to the festival. Will he shorten for both? Most likely, given how incredibly tight/fearful the bookmakers are about Facile Vega.
 
Agree Q he'll win whatever race he runs in. I do think he'll shorten a lot after his Hurdles debut as visually punters we'll have opinions of where he'll end up and Willie will say his piece.
 
Is there a need to back FV now ?
With target far from certain and likely to stay that way until they’ve gone over the Imperial Cup line, is holding off and hitting some evens (or thereabouts) not a better play ?
No bet makes for a dull forum though I get that…
 
Is there a need to back FV now ?
With target far from certain and likely to stay that way until they’ve gone over the Imperial Cup line, is holding off and hitting some evens (or thereabouts) not a better play ?
No bet makes for a dull forum though I get that…

That’s my thought
there is a sequence of events that sees him go off long odds on but it’s unlikely enough and especially if he runs in the supreme id be surprised if even money is not around pre or post Dublin
and obviously could even be bigger or of no interest by that time.
might not see him till Xmas too so price shouldn’t move an awful lot unless all the other novices can’t finish a race
 
The price should hold well enough unless the uk form looks horrendous
 
The price should hold well enough unless the uk form looks horrendous

There appear to be some highly touted PTP horses (as there usually is) so any one or more of those look impressive over mid distance and the price of FV has to hold deep into the Winter as you say…
 
For me Redemption Day will definitely head to the Supreme and while that doesn't necessarily mean FV won't too I'd much rather take the 8/1ish to have Townend on board than the 6/4 with Patrick on FV if the ground isn't bottomless on the Tuesday then RD holds a huge chance of turning the Punchestown form around IMO. If they see FV as a genuine Champ hurdler down the line then Ballymore would make more sense following in Faugheen hoof prints. Apart from the unknown PTP recruits likely heading for the Ballymore FV has everything else covered, smashed American Mike twice, nothing from the bumpers last season looks able to improve enough to taste his kick back let alone beat him so the only danger at the moment seems to be Redemption Day at 2 miles and potentially Jet Powered if he turns out to be as decent as touted, Hendo will always send his best the supreme route, obviously plans change due to one thing or another during the season so could end up in either but I'd be leaning strongly towards Bally despite the price and just hope the likes of An Tobar etc come out before him and put in impressive displays to have FV drift to a more sensible price for one who's not jumped a hurdle in public, not that I think he'll ever be bigger than 5/2 unfortunately no matter what anything else does and assuming he goes into Chelts unbeaten which he looks to be more than capable of.
 
For me Redemption Day will definitely head to the Supreme and while that doesn't necessarily mean FV won't too I'd much rather take the 8/1ish to have Townend on board than the 6/4 with Patrick on FV if the ground isn't bottomless on the Tuesday then RD holds a huge chance of turning the Punchestown form around IMO. If they see FV as a genuine Champ hurdler down the line then Ballymore would make more sense following in Faugheen hoof prints. Apart from the unknown PTP recruits likely heading for the Ballymore FV has everything else covered, smashed American Mike twice, nothing from the bumpers last season looks able to improve enough to taste his kick back let alone beat him so the only danger at the moment seems to be Redemption Day at 2 miles and potentially Jet Powered if he turns out to be as decent as touted, Hendo will always send his best the supreme route, obviously plans change due to one thing or another during the season so could end up in either but I'd be leaning strongly towards Bally despite the price and just hope the likes of An Tobar etc come out before him and put in impressive displays to have FV drift to a more sensible price for one who's not jumped a hurdle in public, not that I think he'll ever be bigger than 5/2 unfortunately no matter what anything else does and assuming he goes into Chelts unbeaten which he looks to be more than capable of.

Patrick most definitely will not ride FV when it comes to hurdles, he only rides bumpers for willie and picks up free rides or gets certain rides such as Sharjah
 
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Patrick most definitely will not ride FV when it comes to hurdles, he only rides bumpers for willie and picks up free rides or gets certain rides such as Sharjah

Is there not some personal connection between Hammer and Trowel syndicate and Patrick? Maybe I'm way off but regardless the pair of them over 2m would be a tough decision for Townend nonetheless.
 
Is there not some personal connection between Hammer and Trowel syndicate and Patrick? Maybe I'm way off but regardless the pair of them over 2m would be a tough decision for Townend nonetheless.

Not that I can recall, they've had other horses with Willie post Quevega and a range of jockey's have ridden for them Townend, Patrick, Danny
 
Is there not some personal connection between Hammer and Trowel syndicate and Patrick? Maybe I'm way off but regardless the pair of them over 2m would be a tough decision for Townend nonetheless.

No nothing between the lads other than being around the yard a long time - no way Paul gets off Facile this year i'd say. :welcoming:
 
No nothing between the lads other than being around the yard a long time - no way Paul gets off Facile this year i'd say. :welcoming:

Which route would you think he goes, currently, if you had to pick one?
 
Which route would you think he goes, currently, if you had to pick one?

I think he starts at 2m and stays there unless theres a reason to go up in trip. Wins wherever he goes anyway!:emmersed:

Was chatting with Codd , he was amazed by him and what he did to Mike. Not often he rants about horses in other stables.
 
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Indeed. You'd want that for Facile Vega to even make the festival, IMO.

I'm much more inclined to go with my gut and opinion and back the race I think he'll end up in. In this case, the Ballymore.

Though admittedly, some prices appear short 6 months out (but they didn’t seem so short in the hours after the festival,
when really, if you can, you need to be using what evidence you have to make an informed choice for 12 months later, if it’s a way you use to obtain value…..) - your thoughts of 6/4 on Facile Vega to even make the festival (or realistically what you’d like) are sadly, for any bookmaker, very wide of the mark.

If any bookmaker was giving you odds of any specific horse ‘making it to the festival’ in 6 months time, the harsh reality is, they’d be offering you 1/5 a specific horse, and probably shorter.

If they offered 6/4 any horse to just make the festival, you’re admitting it’s odds against making the festival, when in reality, that most definitely is not the case. It’s most definitely very short odds on that any horse will make it - certainly those with no injury records.

The prime market to use as an example is the ‘selected for Qatar England World Cup squad’. The large majority of the key players we know will be going (Kane, Sterling, Stones, Rice etc….) range from 1/12 to 1/25 across a variety of bookmakers, and they’ve each still got 5 or 6 matches left before the final squad is announced at the end of October - matches of a high physical nature where any amount of injuries, however niggly, could see them miss out on Qatar.

We all know Harry Kane is the first name on Southgate’s teamsheet, but would you take 1/20 on him getting through a few highly competitive matches without so much of a scratch? Probably not, I would guess.

But it’s a market that, with horses in a similar position (3,4 or in some cases 5 races of high physical activity - with rest in between) it’s a comparable market in my opinion to observe.

If you put say Honeysuckle, Energumene, Allaho, Facile Vega & A Plus Tard at 6/4 each just ‘to make it to the festival’ - I could have 3 of those ‘not make it’ at 6/4 and still break even exactly. The probability is that any 3 of these will be present at Cheltenham, most likely 4 of them, and a reasonable chance all 5 of them. Just 3 from 5 would make you a profit.

Bookmakers don’t want you making a profit, at all.

If we were thinking it’s 6/4 odds against that a specific horse make it to the festival, there’d probably be no festival - or in a best case scenario - 4 horse races like last year’s Marsh Chase.