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Je ne te comprends pas.......What do you mean by a negative impact on the other two prices ? Do you mean they will shorten or go out ? I think Kitzbuhel winning the King George directly impacts the fact Lulamba and Romeo Coolio will go Ryanair which means, in my opinion, their prices will shorten. Hence placing the bet now. The point I was making is there is an opportunity for a related bet based on the King George outcome and you don't get that opportunity very often. It is of course all down to personal interpretation and attitude to risk. And after a couple of lunchtime Stella's I can confirm my attitude to risk in all aspects of my life goes through the roof. ;)
I think he was referring to combining Kitzbuhel for King George and Gaelic Warrior for Gold Cup, as if Kitzbuhel won then he will shorten for the Gold Cup and thus in theory GW should drift in price.
 
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However, should add, you may equally be ruling at least two others out of the Gold Cup picture if Lulamba and Romeo Coolio for example appeared to not stay which could equally firm up GW's price.
 
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You'd also need to consider the SP.

The ultimate aim with ante-post is to beat SP by as big a margin as possible, but this will obviously not be possible in most cases, as prices will fluctuate throughout the season and not always follow one trajectory. So some horses will be available at bigger prices during the season.
This factor and the things that impact this will differ with all horses and can be managed to a certain extent but it can obviously go wrong on many occasions if you're not thoughtful/careful.

Also in respect of the SP.
Who would Townend ride ?
At this stage it is most likely Gaelic Warrior. Which should help with regards his price holding in normal circumstances.
Also, is it a guarantee that Townend comes over for the King George ? I'd say it's highly likely, but not a given.
Kitzbuhel could easily get smashed in the Durkan if as per his MO, Mullins chucks all of his in.


Shit can happen as we all know.

PS,
I think the related element makes a lot of sense and although unlikely to play out fully, due to the odds. It has a lot going for it as a speculative bet at this point. IMO

Kitzbuhel could well win the King George, but Gaelic Warrior might win the Savill's a distance a couple of days later.


Swings and Roundabouts
 
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I think he was referring to combining Kitzbuhel for King George and Gaelic Warrior for Gold Cup, as if Kitzbuhel won then he will shorten for the Gold Cup and thus in theory GW should drift in price.
If Gaelic doesn't go KG which many in here think (not my view) then Kitzbuhel would go off a lot shorter than he is now and Gaelic price in the GC wouldn't move one bit. Therefore, with that scenario, doing the double now makes proper sense.

Might not pan out like that at all though....
 
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I think he was referring to combining Kitzbuhel for King George and Gaelic Warrior for Gold Cup, as if Kitzbuhel won then he will shorten for the Gold Cup and thus in theory GW should drift in price.

This. Especially if Kitzbuhel was to beat Gaelic in the KG...
 
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Maintenant, je comprends. Valid point. I am betting Gaelic Warrior stays in Ireland until the Gold Cup. More praying.
 
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Heard on a podcast recently that NO Fav’s in the main bookmakers Ante Post books for Grade 1’s, at this time last year, won at the Festival 2026

Got me thinking

Are the markets therefore following a trend where they price the market for the main G1 races based upon the previous years form (not sure what else they can base it upon though!) and does this not create an opportunity where you can, or should, make a book without the current AP fav?

Whilst I understand trends can be broken and last years outcomes don’t necessarily represent previous years outcomes, then surely some current prices are simply atrocious and do not represent entirely the horse a) getting to the particular race b) maintaining last years form level throughout this season c) not being bottomed from last years win d) no other horse will progress past it?

At this time last year;
Lossiemouth was around 5/1 and Fav for the Mares Hurdle, which she was thought, in general, to have a better chance of winning…..6/4 fav this year is poor IMO, although the Champ Hurdle division has always been short of depth in potentially 160 rated hurdlers

I’ll Etait Temps was around 12/1 or bigger and thought, in general, to be better suited to the Ryanair……3/1 for this year is nothing short of madness!

Gaelic Warrior was around 12/1, with two or three in front of him in the betting, with talk around him going Ryanair (swapping with Fact To File) ……9/4 for a repeat, nearly six months out, is nothing short of a one way trip to the poor house IMO!

Whilst I am not an oddsmaker, then it must be significant odds on that 2 of the three above don’t win and maybe even all three?
 
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Nice Irish lad who's lost some weight and someone clearly got him a grooming kit for his birthday. Either that or he's got a girlfriend.
For some reason he's using a furniture showroom as his backdrop.
I preferred the Scottish Caddy fella who went with a microwave backdrop (probably the best ever)

Goes through some of Elliott horses to follow anyway.
 
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Nice Irish lad who's lost some weight and someone clearly got him a grooming kit for his birthday. Either that or he's got a girlfriend.
For some reason he's using a furniture showroom as his backdrop.
I preferred the Scottish Caddy fella who went with a microwave backdrop (probably the best ever)

Goes through some of Elliott horses to follow anyway.

….Rare et Precieux also on @darlojim juvenile list, 33-1 (not boosted) a bit of a stand-out with Hills.
 
Have just been looking a the some of the staggering amounts being paid at the Tattersalls October Yearling sales. Last year this sale alone had a turnover of in excess of £200m. Does anyone know whether there is any direct (i.e. not through sponsorship) financial contribution from breeders/vendors to racing ? If not, would have thought some sort of levy on sales price would be justifiable given that all the money being made is on the back of the racing product. This is never an avenue that seems to be explored by racing when looking for additional funding - it always seems to come back to bookmakers only.

Sorry if this is a boring topic but just wondered if there were any breeders / sales experts around.
 
I'm afraid that that is absolute bollocks. Maybe you should try breeding one yourself before suggesting taxing a generally loss-making activity. Our 18 month filly has so far cost about 12k with costs kept to an absolute minimum. We don't intend to sell, incidentally picking up an entry fee plus up to 5% auction fee, but we're under no illusions about recouping even a decent percentage of the cost of getting her this far.

I'm not looking for sympathy as we went into this eyes wide open but sometimes the selfishness of punters just tips me over the edge. Bookies are very good at taking from punters and returning the minimum to racing.

📊 Breakdown of Core Breeding Costs


Phase / ExpenseEstimated UK Cost RangeKey Details
1. Nomination / Stud Fee£1,000 to £200,000+Ranges from low-tier or National Hunt stallions (~£1,000–£5,000) to elite flat stallions like Frankel (~£175,000+).
2. Pre-Breeding & Reproductive Vet Fees£500 to £1,500+Covers mandatory health swabs (CEM/EIA), scans, and cycle management packages (~£300–£600 per cycle).
3. Broodmare Keep (During Pregnancy)£3,000 to £8,000+Costs around £250–£300/month at grass, or significantly higher for full-service commercial stud livery.
4. Foaling Fee & Neonatal Care£500 to £1,500Professional foaling down supervision at a stud (~£400+), plus initial vet checks and emergency plasma if required.
5. Registrations & Legalities£300 to £600Weatherbys registration, microchipping, DNA testing, and passport application.
6. Keep Costs (Birth to 2 Years Old)£15,000 to £25,000Includes routine farrier, vaccinations, feed, and grass livery until the young horse is ready to be broken in.
Compared with

Average prices for two-year-old Thoroughbreds (breeze-up sales) in the UK vary significantly depending on the specific auction house, pedigree, and the individual horse's performance on the track during the preview ("breeze"):
  • Goffs UK Breeze-Up Sale (Doncaster): Recent sales have averaged roughly £75,000 to £90,000+ (with overall averages around $77,500–$111,000 USD equivalent depending on the year), though top-tier lots can fetch anywhere from £250,000 to over £880,000–£1,000,000.
    • Tattersalls Breeze-Up Sales (Craven & Guineas at Newmarket):
      • The Craven Breeze-Up Sale represents the premier, high-end bracket where averages and top lots run considerably higher (with elite individuals selling for hundreds of thousands up to over 1.4 million guineas).
      • The Guineas Breeze-Up Sale generally trades at a more accessible level, with recent sale averages hovering around 32,000 to 33,000 guineas and a median price around 20,000 guineas.
    • Smaller/Online Bloodstock Sales (e.g., ThoroughBid): Lower-profile or online catalog sales for younger or lower-tier stock can average around £4,800 to £6,000 with lower medians.


 
I work with an owner who is part of a syndicate and the fee's he tells me he has to pay for all sorts of miniscule things is frightening and he only has a small share. The cost of owning 100% of a horse i can imagine is astronomical to average Joe like myself.
 
I'm afraid that that is absolute bollocks. Maybe you should try breeding one yourself before suggesting taxing a generally loss-making activity. Our 18 month filly has so far cost about 12k with costs kept to an absolute minimum. We don't intend to sell, incidentally picking up an entry fee plus up to 5% auction fee, but we're under no illusions about recouping even a decent percentage of the cost of getting her this far.

I'm not looking for sympathy as we went into this eyes wide open but sometimes the selfishness of punters just tips me over the edge. Bookies are very good at taking from punters and returning the minimum to racing.

📊 Breakdown of Core Breeding Costs


Phase / ExpenseEstimated UK Cost RangeKey Details
1. Nomination / Stud Fee£1,000 to £200,000+Ranges from low-tier or National Hunt stallions (~£1,000–£5,000) to elite flat stallions like Frankel (~£175,000+).
2. Pre-Breeding & Reproductive Vet Fees£500 to £1,500+Covers mandatory health swabs (CEM/EIA), scans, and cycle management packages (~£300–£600 per cycle).
3. Broodmare Keep (During Pregnancy)£3,000 to £8,000+Costs around £250–£300/month at grass, or significantly higher for full-service commercial stud livery.
4. Foaling Fee & Neonatal Care£500 to £1,500Professional foaling down supervision at a stud (~£400+), plus initial vet checks and emergency plasma if required.
5. Registrations & Legalities£300 to £600Weatherbys registration, microchipping, DNA testing, and passport application.
6. Keep Costs (Birth to 2 Years Old)£15,000 to £25,000Includes routine farrier, vaccinations, feed, and grass livery until the young horse is ready to be broken in.
Compared with

Average prices for two-year-old Thoroughbreds (breeze-up sales) in the UK vary significantly depending on the specific auction house, pedigree, and the individual horse's performance on the track during the preview ("breeze"):
  • Goffs UK Breeze-Up Sale (Doncaster): Recent sales have averaged roughly £75,000 to £90,000+ (with overall averages around $77,500–$111,000 USD equivalent depending on the year), though top-tier lots can fetch anywhere from £250,000 to over £880,000–£1,000,000.
    • Tattersalls Breeze-Up Sales (Craven & Guineas at Newmarket):
      • The Craven Breeze-Up Sale represents the premier, high-end bracket where averages and top lots run considerably higher (with elite individuals selling for hundreds of thousands up to over 1.4 million guineas).
      • The Guineas Breeze-Up Sale generally trades at a more accessible level, with recent sale averages hovering around 32,000 to 33,000 guineas and a median price around 20,000 guineas.
    • Smaller/Online Bloodstock Sales (e.g., ThoroughBid): Lower-profile or online catalog sales for younger or lower-tier stock can average around £4,800 to £6,000 with lower medians.


Sorry if I've touched a nerve! Firstly thanks for the response and the information. I would hope that I am not just a "selfish punter" - I follow racing from a number of aspects and appreciate all of the efforts that go into keeping the whole racing show on the road - there is no doubt that it is severely under funded. I certainly would not advocate for less money from bookmakers but was simply trying to understand if there was any funding supplied from the breeding industry, particularly in light of some of the sums being paid in the sales ring.

I appreciate that taxing the vast majority of sales that go through the ring would not be very fair given the costs that you mention and that doing so would be detrimental to the day to day racing that the vast majority of these types of horses serve. However, there seem to be more and more bigger sales happening these days (at the current Tattersalls Book 1 sales just the top 10 lots to date have realised in excess of £25m). I appreciate that these are exceptions rather than the norm and that the median values are significantly less but putting some sort of tax (call it a windfall tax) on these top level sales would still leave plenty of profit around for the vendors. Its far from a cure all for racings ills (that would require a tote monopoly!) but I find it odd that it never even seems to be discussed.

Anyhow, best of luck with your filly (y)
 
….Kempton’s first jumps meeting of the season on Sunday week has been called off due to lack of rain.
 
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….Kempton’s first jumps meeting of the season on Sunday week has been called off due to lack of rain.
Going to play havoc with plans. Hopefully we'll not get a hard winter as well.
 
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….ATR have their ‘jumps site’ up, posted links to Pauling, Skelton, Cromwell, Murphy, Tizzard stale tours in the new stable tours thread.
 
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I’m looking for some advice from you successful book builders.
I’ve never done one before but have always wanted to give it a try, I’ve decided this is the year and have identified the champion chase as the race to start. At the moment I’m trying to get Il etait temps and kopeck des bordes on side with small roll ups (Il etait more so as I don’t want to get too involved with kopeck until I see a chase entry) and have backed Kargese 10/1 and Mirabad 66/1…………. My questions are should I be backing each way? It seems an obvious race this year for a 5 or 6 runner race!? And with the doubts of Majborough, jonbon, marine, lulamba actually running in the race should I be leaving them until they yield a positive result over 2 miles and take the shorter price?

Any advice greatly appreciated
 
I’m looking for some advice from you successful book builders.
I’ve never done one before but have always wanted to give it a try, I’ve decided this is the year and have identified the champion chase as the race to start. At the moment I’m trying to get Il etait temps and kopeck des bordes on side with small roll ups (Il etait more so as I don’t want to get too involved with kopeck until I see a chase entry) and have backed Kargese 10/1 and Mirabad 66/1…………. My questions are should I be backing each way? It seems an obvious race this year for a 5 or 6 runner race!? And with the doubts of Majborough, jonbon, marine, lulamba actually running in the race should I be leaving them until they yield a positive result over 2 miles and take the shorter price?

Any advice greatly appreciated
I don't book build but from I have seen and learnt from the good men in here over the years you need:
1. Pretty much all the accounts you can get
2. Accounts with cash out
3. Plenty of free time to act on rumour/info so you can cash out
4. Betfair Exchange to trade good positions

Best of luck...