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Festival Changes

quevega said:
If racing has to worry about competition from rugby union then we’re all fucked.
And are you serious about the midlands national ?
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It’s a mainstream sport on terrestial TV, of course it’s competition.
No idea what viewing figures are but all final games are shown on BBC1 and ITV1 so audiences bounce.

Although the Midlands National might not be considered a premium race/fixture by some I fully expect the course survives on income generated from the day, take that away and every chance you take away the racecourses ability to operate and with it the livelihoods of dozens, if not hundreds, of local people and businesses
 
Istabraq said:
It’s a mainstream sport on terrestial TV, of course it’s competition.
No idea what viewing figures are but all final games are shown on BBC1 and ITV1 so audiences bounce.

Although the Midlands National might not be considered a premium race/fixture by some I fully expect the course survives on income generated from the day, take that away and every chance you take away the racecourses ability to operate and with it the livelihoods of dozens, if not hundreds, of local people and businesses
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Let me put it another way,
If on a Saturday the main competition for viewers was Rugby Union. ITV racing would be rubbing their hands together.

Despite your 'playing on the heart strings' attempt at validating your point about the Midlands National.

This race meeting could easily be moved and therefore needn't lead to such losses as you've described. Any impact (if at all) should be catered for by the BHA, using the extra revenue a Saturday Gold Cup would surely generate.

And as such, the meeting at Uttoxeter shouldn't have any major bearing on any decision to move the Gold Cup.
 
Though a move to Saturday would increase TV audiences watching the Gold Cup, I don't think you can compare it with the Grand National, nor any other horse race. The National is the sweepstakes...the take a pick and not have to know anything about racing...the lottery of 40 runners to choose from...
The Gold Cup or almost any other race just doesn't have anywhere near the same appeal of such a wide demographic. Obviously time and history plays a huge part - there's plenty of other National races that on paper would be able to offer the exact same things but I doubt the vast majority who watch the Grand National even know about the Welsh, Scottish, Midland, Irish versions.
But the Gold Cup just wouldn't be able to offer anything like the same experience.

I completely agree that racing needs to constantly evolve and adapt but I personally don't see a Saturday move as making much difference at all. The Gold Cup is already packed on course. For live attendance there's absolutely no issue in drawing in the crowds at the course. A Saturday move would add more viewers in the many thousands but is that enough? There won't be one big game changing idea to get racing where I imagine we all want it - it'll be many cumulative changes that add up as a whole but I struggle to see the benefits to a shift in days.
 
quevega said:
Let me put it another way,
If on a Saturday the main competition for viewers was Rugby Union. ITV racing would be rubbing their hands together.

Despite your 'playing on the heart strings' attempt at validating your point about the Midlands National.

This race meeting could easily be moved and therefore needn't lead to such losses as you've described. Any impact (if at all) should be catered for by the BHA, using the extra revenue a Saturday Gold Cup would surely generate.

And as such, the meeting at Uttoxeter shouldn't have any major bearing on any decision to move the Gold Cup.
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Do you think the current schedule is plucked from the air without thought ?
I have worked with one or two racecourses in the past so have some awareness of their plight and financial positions, so it’s far from playing heart strings, but a genuine reality check
 
I think Cheltenham’s owners do extremely well packing the stands with 60,000+ People per day Monday to Friday at high priced entrance fees. It works perfectly well where it is in the weekly calendar for the course and those attending.
It gets a decent amount of coverage on the national news and on ITV live coverage for four days. Then the following Saturday morning the newspapers cover it well and the tv news covers the Gold Cup winner returning to his stables being cheered by the locals.
 
jono said:
Though a move to Saturday would increase TV audiences watching the Gold Cup, I don't think you can compare it with the Grand National, nor any other horse race. The National is the sweepstakes...the take a pick and not have to know anything about racing...the lottery of 40 runners to choose from...
The Gold Cup or almost any other race just doesn't have anywhere near the same appeal of such a wide demographic. Obviously time and history plays a huge part - there's plenty of other National races that on paper would be able to offer the exact same things but I doubt the vast majority who watch the Grand National even know about the Welsh, Scottish, Midland, Irish versions.
But the Gold Cup just wouldn't be able to offer anything like the same experience.

I completely agree that racing needs to constantly evolve and adapt but I personally don't see a Saturday move as making much difference at all. The Gold Cup is already packed on course. For live attendance there's absolutely no issue in drawing in the crowds at the course. A Saturday move would add more viewers in the many thousands but is that enough? There won't be one big game changing idea to get racing where I imagine we all want it - it'll be many cumulative changes that add up as a whole but I struggle to see the benefits to a shift in days.
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I think the context of all my comments regards the move to a Saturday Gold Cup stands up. I accept that history means the National will always have the X factor.

And I agree that the move may not make much difference these days due to the massive amount of competition for peoples attention these days. They may have missed the boat a bit.

But I do still believe any small improvement is worth making and then building upon, and a Saturday Gold cup would definitely add something to the Sport for sure.

I can't think of many sports that would have their Blue Riband event on a weekday afternoon.
If you were starting from scratch , with a free reign, people would laugh at the idea.

The Sport would be nowhere near what it is without Gambling, and unfortunately the competition for punters money is now becoming a threat to the Sport. Weekday racing could survive in the past as the betting income was sufficiently good. Going forward this may not be so easy so the increased exposure is a likely necessary evil (to some).

And obviously the more people who watch the sport, the likelihood is that the more will bet on it.
More will want to become owners, jockeys, stable staff, trainers etc etc.

There are simply more people available to attract on a Weekend, as most people are still at work during the week.

Even people on this forum have explained the issue of work during the festival and not every racing fan has the luxury of taking time off for the pinnacle meeting of the national hunt season. So most hardcore fans and occasional viewers would all benefit for seeing the Gold Cup run on a Saturday and this should help racing (as to how much exactly then we'll probably never be able to accurately assess due to everything else changing around us). But someone would be able to do it no doubt.
 
Istabraq said:
Do you think the current schedule is plucked from the air without thought ?
I have worked with one or two racecourses in the past so have some awareness of their plight and financial positions, so it’s far from playing heart strings, but a genuine reality check
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No I don't.
However, the racing industry historically has been one of the slowest to react and change and is in effect a slave to it's traditions.
It is a juggling act though and it isn't easy to please everyone, all of the time.

But it is a no brainer that the Gold Cup should be on a Saturday.
 
Hamptonfox said:
I think Cheltenham’s owners do extremely well packing the stands with 60,000+ People per day Monday to Friday at high priced entrance fees. It works perfectly well where it is in the weekly calendar for the course and those attending.
It gets a decent amount of coverage on the national news and on ITV live coverage for four days. Then the following Saturday morning the newspapers cover it well and the tv news covers the Gold Cup winner returning to his stables being cheered by the locals.
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They do an exceptional job and it goes to show that the product is damn good.
More people should be able to watch it live on TV though. It's the pinnacle of the National Hunt season.

Complacency on behalf of Cheltenham racecourse though would be dangerous, and if they had facilities capable of having £200k people in attendance on Gold Cup day then they'd push for a Saturday Gold Cup in a heart beat.
 
Having more morons (or 'general public') watching the Gold Cup doesn't matter that much.

On a Bank Holiday more people are watching, if the whip gets over used on Good Friday on the sand they [morons] are all up in arms and we have to listen to it for weeks after as our industry discuss "what we should do to cater for the general public".


For us (as active members on a horse racing forum), they could have the Gold Cup any day, at any time - we'd all watch it.



I don't care about what the once a year (who may become twice a year punters) want to do. Personally I don't even want people who put £1 each way on race courses either, should be banned for wasting time and getting ion my way in the queue (then again, who is backing on course nowadays).... however I understand the need for 'morons' to attend race courses for the greater good.


I'd leave it where it is...On Friday, as a 4 day bonanza but I only have to think about myself and I know 100% I'll always be off that week. Where other people are on the scale of caring about it, is moot.
 
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Kevloaf said:
Having more morons (or 'general public') watching the Gold Cup doesn't matter that much.

On a Bank Holiday more people are watching, if the whip gets over used on Good Friday on the sand they [morons] are all up in arms and we have to listen to it for weeks after as our industry discuss "what we should do to cater for the general public".


For us (as active members on a horse racing forum), they could have the Gold Cup any day, at any time - we'd all watch it.



I don't care about what the once a year (who may become twice a year punters) want to do. Personally I don't even want people who put £1 each way on race courses either, should be banned for wasting time and getting ion my way in the queue (then again, who is backing on course nowadays).... however I understand the need for 'morons' to attend race courses for the greater good.


I'd leave it where it is...On Friday, as a 4 day bonanza but I only have to think about myself and I know 100% I'll always be off that week. Where other people are on the scale of caring about it, is moot.
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Got to agree with you.
 
The King Pimm said:
Glad to see the 4 miler for novices reduced, I’ve always found it stupid that horses can enter that race never having raced 4 mile before with amateur jockeys on board.

I’ve been hoping for a novice mates chase for years now. I’m glad it’s now happening, it’s long over due. Instead of cutting races I’d like to see the Cheltenham Festival either extended to 5 days or have an extra race added to each day and start at midday. There are a few races I’m not keen on at the Festival but don’t want to see them cut.
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I don’t want a five day festival. Here’s why.. if they do a five day festival, it’ll be in the format of royal ascot with 30 races across the five days.

And I’ve always though six races is not enough. Especially with Cheltenham being £70 for a ticket in the Club. Not sure I want to be paying £350 for the five days for only two more races than we get now. Most years I’ll be in the hotel from Tuesday night til Friday night but I’ve been incredibly lucky the last two years in that my club, Ipswich, have had Bristol City away on Cheltenham week. And I stay in Bristol for Cheltenham as it’s cheaper. This year.. upon relegation.. who have Ipswich got on the saturday I wonder? Bristol Rovers away! Ridiculous luck. Assuming that run will eventually stop, I don’t want a fifth day as well because it’ll add an extra nights stay in the hotel which is another £100.

I think all race meetings should be 7 or 8 races.

It’ll be the close Brothers handicap that goes. And they won’t have 2 Mares races on the Tuesday so there will be a reshuffle of the race order across the week too.
 
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quevega said:
I think the context of all my comments regards the move to a Saturday Gold Cup stands up. I accept that history means the National will always have the X factor.

And I agree that the move may not make much difference these days due to the massive amount of competition for peoples attention these days. They may have missed the boat a bit.

But I do still believe any small improvement is worth making and then building upon, and a Saturday Gold cup would definitely add something to the Sport for sure.

I can't think of many sports that would have their Blue Riband event on a weekday afternoon.
If you were starting from scratch , with a free reign, people would laugh at the idea.

The Sport would be nowhere near what it is without Gambling, and unfortunately the competition for punters money is now becoming a threat to the Sport. Weekday racing could survive in the past as the betting income was sufficiently good. Going forward this may not be so easy so the increased exposure is a likely necessary evil (to some).

And obviously the more people who watch the sport, the likelihood is that the more will bet on it.
More will want to become owners, jockeys, stable staff, trainers etc etc.

There are simply more people available to attract on a Weekend, as most people are still at work during the week.

Even people on this forum have explained the issue of work during the festival and not every racing fan has the luxury of taking time off for the pinnacle meeting of the national hunt season. So most hardcore fans and occasional viewers would all benefit for seeing the Gold Cup run on a Saturday and this should help racing (as to how much exactly then we'll probably never be able to accurately assess due to everything else changing around us). But someone would be able to do it no doubt.
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In fairness though, Cheltenham offers that as something sports fans love. Plenty of lads who I know my age (21) don’t watch racing but sure as hell will be messaging me on the days beforehand asking for tips for ‘Cheltenham week’. Everyone knows that week is just for Cheltenham sporting wise. Whacking it in with the footy and the six nations just complicates matters.

The ‘middle of march’ is Cheltenham’s place in the sporting calendar for four days during the week every year. It would feel a real shame to change that.
 
Personally , I think a 4 day festival is enough. But as it has already expanded , then it may be inevitable.
that it goes to five days in the future. As for the Mares chase , with the hurdle on tues,.
and the novice hurdle on thurs , then wednesday might be the choice with the Boodles or bumper.
replacing the close bros. .... 2 years to go though...
 
If there was a multiple choice of what happens to accommodate the new race and I had the deciding vote out of:
A) Make Cheltenham Festival a 5 day event
B) Replace existing race
C) Expand each day to 7 races and start at 12.30

I would go for option C every time. Along with the new Mares Chase I would also introduce a Veterans Chase, an extended flat race of say 20f that is aimed at National Hunt races struggling with jumping and another shorter cross country race like they do in Leopardstown Festival that could be used as a Grand National prep so it’s being used twice during the week. I know that the cross country race is a very popular spectacle with punters who don’t watch much horse racing even though it’s not a popular race for regular experienced punters.
 
MoM- another relegation and you really could hit the jackpot with Cheltenham away !

All interesting points re festival.
The suggestion of a 35 race festival isn’t as wild as it sounds but further dilution will always be a concern, it was only 15 years ago the festival was 18 and of course the more options you put out there the harder ante post gets.

While we’re thinking extra races does anyone remember a 3m 4f handicap hurdle or did I dream that ?
 
Kevloaf said:
Having more morons (or 'general public') watching the Gold Cup doesn't matter that much.

On a Bank Holiday more people are watching, if the whip gets over used on Good Friday on the sand they [morons] are all up in arms and we have to listen to it for weeks after as our industry discuss "what we should do to cater for the general public".


For us (as active members on a horse racing forum), they could have the Gold Cup any day, at any time - we'd all watch it.



I don't care about what the once a year (who may become twice a year punters) want to do. Personally I don't even want people who put £1 each way on race courses either, should be banned for wasting time and getting ion my way in the queue (then again, who is backing on course nowadays).... however I understand the need for 'morons' to attend race courses for the greater good.


I'd leave it where it is...On Friday, as a 4 day bonanza but I only have to think about myself and I know 100% I'll always be off that week. Where other people are on the scale of caring about it, is moot.
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The Morons = General Public is harsh and incorrect.

These same people are generally not the ones doing the complaining either, This tends to be people with their own agenda and philosophy.

The industry has to be conscious of perception, it can't just ignore it.

I'd bet that all of us on here were once a year or occasional gamblers/watchers at some point.

I'd like it to stay where it is to suit me and my mates, but realistically all the big races of this great sport should be on a weekend.
It would help financially and help with longevity of the game.
 
There was an element of Alan Partridge ‘Monkey Tennis’ with my other suggestions for new races, I was being rushed off the toilet by my wife and kids!!
 
Just my opinion,

Stop messing around with everything. Yes, some things are for the best, like the adjustment to the 4 miler, but ultimately the Cheltenham Festival IS THE BIGGEST racing festival in the calendar year. If anything needs to be improved it is the rest of the racing, during the year, not the festival. 4 days, Tuesday-Friday, leave it.

Also, I can certainly see the appeal for a Mares Chase, but where does it end? I'm waiting for the 'Female Riders Only' race to be installed in the near future, because it is coming for sure.

What we are conceding with all these Mares races, IMO, is that 7lb is nowhere near enough an allowance against the boys! You'll get the odd one, Dawn Run & Annie Power for instance, but over the course a longer period they just can't compete, with the current allowance allocated.
 
In the end, it's all down to whether you want to mainly cater for the racegoer or the TV audience.

The racegoer much prefers a weekday partly because it makes it more of an event and partly because it's nice to have the weekend to recover.

You'd have to accept that the TV audience finds the weekend better but the logical extension of this is to race on Saturday and Sunday. The Gold Cup on the Sunday between the two televised football matches would be far better than any time on the Saturday.

In terms of new and/or replaced races, the Fred Winter and the Close Bros are apparently low turnover races so are logically bottom of the pile for bookies. As far as the mares allowance is concerned, the stats apparently show that 7lb is the average requirement but that at the top of the ability scale it tends to be less. Thus my earlier comment of reviewing the allowance in championship races.
 
quevega said:
The Morons = General Public is harsh and incorrect.

These same people are generally not the ones doing the complaining either, This tends to be people with their own agenda and philosophy.

The industry has to be conscious of perception, it can't just ignore it.

I'd bet that all of us on here were once a year or occasional gamblers/watchers at some point.

I'd like it to stay where it is to suit me and my mates, but realistically all the big races of this great sport should be on a weekend.
It would help financially and help with longevity of the game.
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Using that arguement, why don't we have the Cheltenham festival every Saturday in March. Surely the champion hurdle etc deserve to be run on a Saturday too:devilish:
 
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