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Supreme Novice Hurdle 2019

Yes he did, and didnt debut till mid January either. JP no runner in triumph either that season, although henderson won it with zaynar.
Wonder how they make their minds up sometimes.

Didn’t McManus have the favourite for the Triumph (Franchoek) which was the reason Binocular went to the Supreme. If memory serves me correctly they both came second.
 
Didn’t McManus have the favourite for the Triumph (Franchoek) which was the reason Binocular went to the Supreme. If memory serves me correctly they both came second.

That's what I thought Jackie. They surely wouldn't have done it if not - I'll check.
 
That's what I thought Jackie. They surely wouldn't have done it if not - I'll check.

You're right, they were both in 2008.

Did JP purchase Franchoek just before the festival so that he had a runner? That rings a bell with me but not 100% sure.
 
A remember plenty on here waxing lyrical about Charlie (pig) Parcs. Dodging Horses, blaming ground, a when he did take a decent horse on stumbled when he was completely out of petrol Hendo saying he'd have won for the bad error :highly_amused::highly_amused:
Hendo had a few too many red wines that day. He's actually got a terrible novice hurdle record at the festival if you consider the amount of short priced horses he presents at the festival. Over bet, under perform. All imho.
 
Unless Annamix comes back with something special, I think this Supreme is as wide open as last year.
 
angels breath the one imo. Fair comments about Henderson record though - not necessarily a bad thing if it means horses have longer career.
 
That Meade horse = Valdieu looked good just then. Looked a really nice horse
 
Can't understand the knocking of Henderson's novice hurdlers. Taking the past 5 seasons and say comparing him to Willie Mullins who arguably sets the benchmark in this division during that time:

Henderson:
23 runners - 1 win, 6 places, 16 unplaced = 4.3% / 26% / 69.7%

Mullins:
52 runners - 5 wins, 7 places, 40 unplaced = 9.6% / 13.5% / 76.9%

No exact reason for the cut off point but using 8/1 as a price that is I feel 'relatively fancied' in the market (as not sure taking big priced runners is overly relevant), he's had 7 runners under 8/1.

Henderson:
7 runners 8/1 or under - 1 win, 2 places, 4 unplaced = 14.3% / 28.6% / 57.1%

Mullins:
20 runners 8/1 or under - 4 wins, 5 places, 11 unplaced = 20% / 25% / 55%



Mullins beats him easily with winners but then bar Penhill at 16/1, his 4 other winners were 2/1F, 7/2F, 3/1, 6/4F.
He also had runners priced at 7/4F, 5/2F and 2/1F who all unplaced in this time.

Henderson has only had 1 fav in the last 5 years in all 3 races - Santini 11/4F finished 3rd.
His only other 2 runners below 4/1 were Altior who won and L'Ami Serge who came 4th.

I'll happily back a Henderson horse I fancy without any hesitation



Supreme

Henderson = 5-36-13-4-23 (1 wins, 4 placed, 3 unplaced)
Henderson Favs = none
Henderson under 8/1 = 314 (1 win, 1 placed, 1 unplaced)

Mullins = 80-2500-280-1267-160 (2 wins, 3 placed, 11 unplaced)
Mullins Favs = 02211 (2 wins, 2 placed, 1 unplaced)
Mullins under 8/1 = 0202116 (2 wins, 2 placed, 3 unplaced)

2018
Henderson
Claimintakinforgan 16/1 - 5th

Mullins
Getabird 7/4F - 11th
Sharjah 20/1 - 8th

2017
Henderson
River Wylde 8/1 - 3rd
Beyond Conceit 16/1 - 6th

Mullins
Melon 3/1F - 2nd
Cilaos Emery 12/1 - 5th
Bunk Off Early 6/1 - 12th
Crack Mome 11/1 - 13th

2016
Henderson
Altior 4/1 - 1st
Buveur D'Air 10/1 - 3rd

Mullins
Min 15/8F - 2nd
Petit Mouchoir 20/1 - 8th
Bellshill 11/1 - 13th

2015
Henderson
L'ami Serge 7/2 - 4th

Mullins
Douvan 2/1F - 1st
Shaneshill 9/1 - 2nd
Tell us More 12/1 - 6th
Alvisio Ville 20/1 - 7th

2014
Henderson
Josses Hill 14/1 - 2nd
Vaniteux 11/1 - 3rd

Mullins
Vautour 7/2F - 1st
Wicklow Brave 8/1 - 6th
Valseur Lido 16/1 - 10th

Ballymore

Henderson = /-4F-8-4-00 (0 wins, 6 unplaced)
Henderson Favs = none
Henderson under 8/1 = 4 (1 unplaced)

Mullins = 3459-50PP-147P-36-13 (2 wins, 3 placed, 11 unplaced)
Mullins Favs = 31 (1 win, 1 placed)
Mullins under 8/1 = 3P173613 (2 wins, 3 placed, 3 unplaced)

2018
Henderson
No runners

Mullins
Next Destination 4/1 - 3rd
Scarpeta 33/1 - 4th
Duc de Geniveries 10/1 - 5th
Brahma Bull 25/1 - 9th

2017
Henderson
Burbank 50/1 - 4th
Consul de Thaix 16/1 - F

Mullins
Kemboy 16/1 - 5th
Livelovelaugh 16/1 - 10th
Bacardys 4/1 - PU
Bon Papa 18/1 - PU

2016
Henderson
O O Seven 20/1 - 8th

Mullins
Yorkhill 3/1 - 1st
Bello Conti 20/1 - 4th
A To Phil 8/1 - 7th
Thomas Hobson 14/1 - PU

2015
Henderson
Vyta du Roc 15/2 - 4th

Mullins
Milsean 33/1 - 2nd
Nichols Canyon 7/2F - 3rd
Outlander 4/1 - 6th

2014
Henderson
Cup Final 16/1 - 10th
Cocktails at Dawn 33/1 - 11th

Mullins
Faugheen 6/4F - 1st
Rathvinden 11/2 - 3rd

Albert Bartlett

Henderson = 23PP-40-/-PF-P (0 wins, 2 placed, 7 unplaced)
Henderson Favs = 3 (1 placed)
Henderson under 8/1 = 3PP (1 placed, 2 unplaced)

Mullins = 470-160P-568UFUP-2478P-F (1 win, 1 placed, 18 unplaced)
Mullins Favs = 7F (2 unplaced)
Mullins under 8/1 = 66U7F (5 unplaced)

2018
Henderson
Ok Corral 16/1 - 2nd
Santini 11/4F - 3rd
Chef des Obeaux 6/1 - PU
Mr Whipped 16/1 - PU

Mullins
Ballyward 20/1 - 4th
Fabulous Saga 20/1 - 7th
Real Steel 33/1 - 11th

2017
Henderson
Constantine Bay 12/1 - 4th
Baden 100/1 11th

Mullins
Penhill 16/1 - 1st
Augusta Kate 11/2 - 6th
C'est Jersey 100/1 - 10th
Turcagua 66/1 - PU

2016
Henderson
No runners

Mullins
Balko des Flos 40/1 - 5th
Gangster 15/2 - 6th
Open Eagle 20/1 - 8th
Bachasson 28/1 - U
Bleu et Rouge 10/1 - F
Lond Dog 5/1 - U
Up for Review 12/1 - PU

2015
Henderson
Carachi Apache 20/1 - PU
Out Sam 14/1 - F

Mullins
Milsean 33/1 - 2nd
Arbre de Vie 16/1 - 4th
Black Hercules 5/2F - 7th
Measureofmydreams 100/1 - 8th
Avant Tout 100/1 - PU

2014
Henderson
Captain Cutter 7/1 - PU

Mullins
Briar Hill 2/1F - F
 
Interesting reading.

Just to rattle your cage, is the point that stands out there, than despite the absolute wealth of talent Henderson has, and some superb horses, only 3 have them have been under 4/1?

Is there not a line of thought that says he has super talented horses, that go on to be better after their novice hurdle campaign, and he doesn't get the best out of them?

His record as you've highlighted isn't bad, and I wouldn't avoid backing his horses anyway, but with all that talent, none of them seem to turn up in March as fancied beasts, which is the most surprising thing?
 
I'm not sure it's the knocking of Henderson himself though, more the so called 'hype' that surrounds individual horses. I think it pays to follow NH & WPM for the Supreme, but the average, maybe even lazy punter, who doesn't do the early groundwork would want to get either of them trainers runners beat as they are usually shorter in price than they actually should be.

It's certainly not just Henderson's horses that get knocked, WPM is in the same boat though I'm not sure either trainer really cares what is written on this forum or other forums tbh.
 
Does anyone have the exact comments from Gordon regarding Battleoverdoyen NOT running at 2 miles?

I can cash out for profit, but am still tempted to wait for the NRNB price (hopefully within the next 48 hours!)
 
Does anyone have the exact comments from Gordon regarding Battleoverdoyen NOT running at 2 miles?

I can cash out for profit, but am still tempted to wait for the NRNB price (hopefully within the next 48 hours!)

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">This season will be all about two and a half to three miles," says Gordon Elliott of future chaser Battleoverdoyen, who was cut for the Ballymore after winning today<br><br>Results**➡ *<a href="https://t.co/7iJOPsdIyZ">https://t.co/7iJOPsdIyZ</a> <a href="https://t.co/dUzUFeMOjb">pic.twitter.com/dUzUFeMOjb</a></p>— Racing TV (@RacingTV) <a href="https://twitter.com/RacingTV/status/1081917451523313666?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 6, 2019</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

This season will be all about two and a half to three miles ...he wouldn't come back to 2 anyway
 
Does anyone have the exact comments from Gordon regarding Battleoverdoyen NOT running at 2 miles?

I can cash out for profit, but am still tempted to wait for the NRNB price (hopefully within the next 48 hours!)

I don't have the quotes but listened to his interview and he said that he wouldn't be stepping back in trip. You lose night by waiting 24 hours. I think they'll go nrnb tomorrow.
 
Thank-you.

That's pretty conclusive. I will probably wait for tomorrow, he's not going to get pushed out over night is he!
 
Interesting reading.

Just to rattle your cage, is the point that stands out there, than despite the absolute wealth of talent Henderson has, and some superb horses, only 3 have them have been under 4/1?

Is there not a line of thought that says he has super talented horses, that go on to be better after their novice hurdle campaign, and he doesn't get the best out of them?

His record as you've highlighted isn't bad, and I wouldn't avoid backing his horses anyway, but with all that talent, none of them seem to turn up in March as fancied beasts, which is the most surprising thing?

Of all his best horses over the last 5-10 years i'd say only Sprinter Sacre and Buveur D'Air would fit that category ("better after their novice hurdle campaign, and he doesn't get the best out of them?").

BvD the obvious one coming into the Supreme at 10/1 and then winning 2 CH's after. But he was priced up as the 3rd shortest price runner and he ran to that placing.

Sprinter Sacre was 11/1 in the Supreme and then was one of the best chasers of all time. But he was quite clearly a much much better chaser than hurdler. And again he ran to a place that his price suggested (3 lower prices horses than him finished 1st, 2nd, 4th)

Of his best / highest profile horses over the last 8 years to have run in the festival novice hurdle races...

Santini
Current Fav for the RSA. Yet to prove but huge potential
11/4F - 3rd in the Albert Bartlett

Altior
Best horse currently in training
4/1 2ndFav - 1st in the Supreme

Buveur D'Air
2 time Champion Hurdler
10/1 - 3rd in the Supreme

My Tent Or Yours
Runner up in 3 Champion Hurdles
15/8F - 2nd in the Supreme

Darlan
Was 9/2 for the CH and looked to have the beating of Rock on Ruby at Doncaster (who finished 2nd in the CH that year) but a fatal injury falling at the last
7/1 - 2nd in the Supreme

Spirit Son
Destroyed Cue Card by 13 lengths and Rock on Ruby by 8 lengths at Aintree but sadly lost his life
5/1 2ndFav - 2nd in the Supreme

Sprinter Sacre
3rd Highest rated chaser of all time
11/1 - 3rd in the Supreme

Simonsig
Won the following years Arkle, looked a superstar but was plagued with injuries there after
2/1F - 1st in the Neptune

Bobs Worth
Won an RSA, Gold Cup, Lexus and Hennessy
15/8F - 1st in the Albert Bartlett

Hard to say he didn't get the best out of any of them in that initial novice hurdle season.

He's arguably got the strongest hand in the novice hurdlers this year but we've already seen Pym, Rathhill, I Can't Explain (who I really liked) and Downtown Getaway (slightly harsh?) all disappoint to varying degrees. Claimintakinforgan the year before, Jenkins the year before that...

My view would be that his horses are usually overbet at the start of each season (which happens with most of the bigger trainers) BUT if come March he's got a well fancied runner they are very likely to justify their price and come very close or winning and it's then when i'd be reluctant to take them on.

Will be interesting to see what price and how fancied Champ is after Trials day and on Wednesday morning (a horse I haven't backed) likewise Angels Breath (a horse I have backed)

On the note of Henderson novice hurdlers...Dickie Diver, another potentially promising Point to pointer and another JP owned horse is running tomorrow at Chepstow, 2m3
 
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Nicholls hasn't had a runner in this since Irving. Criminally underused.
 
Of all his best horses over the last 5-10 years i'd say only Sprinter Sacre and Buveur D'Air would fit that category ("better after their novice hurdle campaign, and he doesn't get the best out of them?").

BvD the obvious one coming into the Supreme at 10/1 and then winning 2 CH's after. But he was priced up as the 3rd shortest price runner and he ran to that placing.

Sprinter Sacre was 11/1 in the Supreme and then was one of the best chasers of all time. But he was quite clearly a much much better chaser than hurdler. And again he ran to a place that his price suggested (3 lower prices horses than him finished 1st, 2nd, 4th)

Of his best / highest profile horses over the last 8 years to have run in the festival novice hurdle races...

Santini
Current Fav for the RSA. Yet to prove but huge potential
11/4F - 3rd in the Albert Bartlett

Altior
Best horse currently in training
4/1 2ndFav - 1st in the Supreme

Buveur D'Air
2 time Champion Hurdler
10/1 - 3rd in the Supreme

My Tent Or Yours
Runner up in 3 Champion Hurdles
15/8F - 2nd in the Supreme

Darlan
Was 9/2 for the CH and looked to have the beating of Rock on Ruby at Doncaster (who finished 2nd in the CH that year) but a fatal injury falling at the last
7/1 - 2nd in the Supreme

Spirit Son
Destroyed Cue Card by 13 lengths and Rock on Ruby by 8 lengths at Aintree but sadly lost his life
5/1 2ndFav - 2nd in the Supreme

Sprinter Sacre
3rd Highest rated chaser of all time
11/1 - 3rd in the Supreme

Simonsig
Won the following years Arkle, looked a superstar but was plagued with injuries there after
2/1F - 1st in the Neptune

Bobs Worth
Won an RSA, Gold Cup, Lexus and Hennessy
15/8F - 1st in the Albert Bartlett

Hard to say he didn't get the best out of any of them in that initial novice hurdle season.

He's arguably got the strongest hand in the novice hurdlers this year but we've already seen Pym, Rathhill, I Can't Explain (who I really liked) and Downtown Getaway (slightly harsh?) all disappoint to varying degrees. Claimintakinforgan the year before, Jenkins the year before that...

My view would be that his horses are usually overbet at the start of each season (which happens with most of the bigger trainers) BUT if come March he's got a well fancied runner they are very likely to justify their price and come very close or winning and it's then when i'd be reluctant to take them on.

Will be interesting to see what price and how fancied Champ is after Trials day and on Wednesday morning (a horse I haven't backed) likewise Angels Breath (a horse I have backed)

On the note of Henderson novice hurdlers...Dickie Diver, another potentially promising Point to pointer and another JP owned horse is running tomorrow at Chepstow, 2m3

I would echo a lot of this. Are horses not suppose to improve for their novice hurdle season anyway? You could say the opposite about Mullins, that he gets so much out of horses in their novice seasons that they don't kick on in open company. Of the ones that have Faugheen was one of the best ever, Vautour was a superstar but had a some blips here and there, Annie Power always had a light campaign and didn't go to Cheltenham as a novice, The Fly also missed Cheltenham as a novice.

When you compare the list of horses Hendo has had in recent years to Mullins with the exception of Altior & BD it would seem he's had very poor novices the last few years. This year IMO he is miles ahead and I think he might be champion trainer ahead of Gordo & Willie, I would definitely fancy him to win more G1s that them but Gordon might nick it with the hcaps.