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Queen Mother Champion Chase 2020

The King Pimm said:
You get the same arguments in all sports. Joe Calzaghe career was always hampered and dampened by trash talk from pundits claiming he was not a great or legend because the opposition was not as strong as decades previous but you can only beat what’s in front of you like Joe did, he beat every top middle weight he could. Altior beat everything he came across until recently. I don’t know how his times compared to other top top 2 milers but if it was fantasy horse racing and a fully tuned and fit Altior at his best met Sprinter, Douvan, Masterminded etc at Cheltenham I’d back Altior. I think his tactics in some of the races have been wrong and I’m sure he could have won some of his races by 20 lengths plus
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Sprinter at his pomp was a fair bit better than Altior IMO. Altior still up there as a great.
 
Top Official Ratings for the two horses were

Altior 175
Sprinter Sacre 188

So at their best Altior would need a stone less than SS to win that battle, unless Altior has been keeping a stone in hand all this time, and Sprinter Sacre had nothing in hand when he posted his best figures.

Sprinter Sacre’s top rated performance was probably his 19 length Champion Chase win, beating the prior year winner Sizing Europe (who was rated 177 when he won the year before). The Racing Post quote of the performance included the phrase “never off the bridle” for SS.

The nearest to SS over 2 miles in the last twenty has been Masterminded at 186. I don’t think Altior comes close to those two at their best.
 
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I’m of the belief Altior has been plotting to keep that stone in hand for the new Legends CC race on the 5th day of the Cheltenham Festival 2021 when all the greats of the 2 mile hall of fame are rolled out to put this debate to bed once and for all and failing that they’ll meet in my new grade 1 superstar handicap which will replace the Gold Cup which will see Altior bottom weight!! :triumphant:

Based on ratings I’ll pipe down, I didn’t know there was such a big difference between Altior and Sprinter on top ratings. That’s put my argument to bed unless Altior performs a miracle in March
 
Hamptonfox said:
Top Official Ratings for the two horses were

Altior 175
Sprinter Sacre 188

So at their best Altior would need a stone less than SS to win that battle, unless Altior has been keeping a stone in hand all this time, and Sprinter Sacre had nothing in hand when he posted his best figures.

Sprinter Sacre’s top rated performance was probably his 19 length Champion Chase win, beating the prior year winner Sizing Europe (who was rated 177 when he won the year before). The Racing Post quote of the performance included the phrase “never off the bridle” for SS.

The nearest to SS over 2 miles in the last twenty has been Masterminded at 186. I don’t think Altior comes close to those two at their best.
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Very good analysis, but it works off the basis that the handicapper’s assessment is a) correct and b) comparable across different generations of horses when all comparable marks are not there.

I think a peak Sprinter would beat a peak Altior, but not by far. Altior’s CC win just under two years ago in 2018 was in my opinion hugely underrated by the handicapper: 5-8lbs underrated IMO. He beat Min by 7 lengths, who has beaten mid 160s horses by similar distances, in horrible conditions that did not suit him at all. The RPR was 183, I think. That is much fairer and probably represents a fairer gap.

Altior is still a great though. 19 successive wins and his grade 1 record ensure that. Bad mouthing his achievements is just bizarre, in my opinion. You’re basically bad mouthing the sport.

And it is worth remember jockeys like Barry and Ruby who were around across both horses’ generations think Altior is a “great”.

Strangely, I actually think Altior would have reached a higher OR and garnered more respect if he’d stayed a hurdler. Hendo said he is still the quickest horse he has, inc BvD. And he beat him in the Supreme. I think he’d have won 3 successive Champion Hurdles, and odds on, with today’s Market, to win a 4th.

He’d certainly then be considered a great! The fact he’s gone chasing should not go against him.
 
Altior has never had a win as visibly impressive as Sprinters Melling Chase win

However part of that is their racing style, Altior would power away from the last where as Sprinter would just annihilate his opposition from 3 our making everything look alonmore impressive.

Fully fit Altior vs Douvan jumping the last 2 festivals ago would have been a dream
 
Viking Flagship was better than any of them in my opinion. His toughness and will to win was immense. He had an insane 73 races under rules compare that to Altiors 23 races, Sprinter Sacres 24 races and Master Minded 28 races.

The ratings may not say that Viking Flagship was the best of all time but there has never been one tougher than him and thats why for me he is the best of all time. Or at least the best that I ever watched.
 
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ELEGANTLY TASTED said:
Viking Flagship was better than any of them in my opinion. His toughness and will to win was immense. He had an insane 73 races under rules compare that to Altiors 23 races, Sprinter Sacres 24 races and Master Minded 28 races.

The ratings may not say that Viking Flagship was the best of all time but there has never been one tougher than him and thats why for me he is the best of all time. Or at least the best that I ever watched.
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For me all this shit about who was/is the best is subjective, end of .
OR are slated by many on here, believe on your eye , form your own opinion.

On Viking Flagship could not agree with you more
Loved the Horse .

When he set sail for home it was a sight to behold
Happy happy memories
 
And, of course, there's only one horse to win the Champion Chase by a distance.

 
Remmitance Man never gets mentioned in any all time best 2 mile chaser but he was a beast of a horse until Mick Fitzgerald somehow managed to get the best jumper in training to fall with a second champion chase at his mercy, he was never the same after.
Stunning jumper of a fence....
 
This would surely be the toughest division of them all to pick a GOAT. So many special horses and where would you even start?!

How many could One Man have won if they'd brought him back in trip earlier? His QMCC success was one of my favourite ever Cheltenham moments and I'll never forget the reception he got. Had a tear in my eye that day and it made it all the worse being there to see what happened to him at Aintree only a few weeks later :(
 
Kautothegreat8 said:
Look if Henderson just comes out and says we tried, it didn’t work so we’ll be coming back to 2 miles, I’d have absolutely no problem. We all know he’s coming back to 2 miles and in MY OPINION Henderson hasn’t had the cohones to admit defeat. As for Altior being one of the best ever..... totally disagree. Look at the division he’s been running in over the last 3 years. Not one genuine high class 2 miler to compete with other than Douvan who’s made of glass. Put him in the era 5 or 6 years back with Sizing Europe, Masterminded, Sprinter. Hell I even think Big Zeb would have beat him. Never been a fan personally, always struggles to get the job done against this current crop.
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I think is extremely harsh on Altior, yes it’s your opinion but just because the horse doesn’t win or run in the style of a sprinter of master minded does not take away what the horse has done.

100% a great of the game, regardless of the opposition to do what he has done to date. If he was that bad how has he run against such small fields half his career......because he scared the opposition away he is that good.

So to win 19 times in a row is altiors fault nobody else was good enough to beat him? Can’t understand your opinion at all seriously.

Man Utd in the 90’s 20’s must be rubbish as well for all they did because the opposition was terrible.
 
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I find it bizarre that a horse who won 19 races on the trot and was unbeaten for four and a half years isn't acknowledged as an all time great.
You can get lucky and face weaker opposition in any one year but over multiple seasons this isn't possible.
I still don't buy the idea he has regressed hugely, it's not like he was beaten half the Ascot straight over a new trip against the highest rated horse in training but even if his career ended today he would still have to be considered an all time great...
 
Altior is definitely an all time great.

Sprinter Sacre just had the ability to travel so well he took Grade 1 fields apart. Probably like Frankel c/w Altior being Sea The Stars.

Both exceptional in their time, one just caught the eye with his field-dismantling ability to travel over horses.
 
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Depends on how many all time greats are allowed in the stable really don't it ?

If we're saying 100 (any race and distance) then I'd agree.
If we're saying 10 for the 2 mile chase division, i'd also agree.

Once we start narrowing it down, he's going to struggle for now, as he's not beaten many really good rated horses since he's gone chasing.
If he wins at the festival again this year, he's jumping a fair few places for sure.
The facts back that up.
 
Altior is not in the 5 top rated 2 mile chasers this century.
 
Altior is a great in the record books but as ive said, he’s very lucky to be around in this poor division. Not trying to take anything away from him but he’s taken over from Special Tiara. Best horse he’d ran against before Cyrname was Un Des Sceaux who’s clearly not an out and out 2 miler. It’s not harsh to say he’s won all his grade ones against average opposition.
 
Who has been rated higher Archie?

I'd guess at:

Moscow Flyer
Azertyuiop
Master Minded
Sprinter Sacre
Sizing Europe

He would have been rated higher if the oppo was around to test him though
 
Faugheen_Machine said:
Who has been rated higher Archie?

I'd guess at:

Moscow Flyer
Azertyuiop
Master Minded
Sprinter Sacre
Sizing Europe

He would have been rated higher if the oppo was around to test him though
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Well Chief as well. Personally, I don't think he would have beaten any of the other six but we'll never know.

The 1983 Champion Chase was my first on course and I've been there for every one since. I don't have Altior in my top ten unless I allow him a late tie with Pearlyman and Barnbrook Again.
 
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