General Chat

[archie]

Just as online casino sites linked to mainstream bookie sites are the reason for affordability checks, FOBTs are the reason why betting shops are in the same 'dodgy' category as casino machine establishments. It is absolutely within the bookies' power to resolve this but it isn't of financial benefit to them.

 

[Istabraq]

I agree Ista…sad, but disagree that nothing is changing anytime soon

Change is coming and unfortunately all bad IMO

Betting shop numbers I believe directly correlate to the amount of Media Rights payments bookmakers pay to racecourses. Major operators have recently confirmed large numbers to close and I suspect there will be more, as the tax increases to machines kick in and affordability checks become statutory.

Media rights payments are in part used towards prize money and will be reducing now, even before the next negotiation phase, where bookmakers will expect to pay less per shop and online due to the decline in horse racing turnover

Levy payments will decline as customers refuse intrusive affordability checks and financial risk assessments recently agreed by the GC (these are different from affordability checks and are in addition to), both in shop and online.

Most of the Levy goes into prize money

The Racecourses are a law unto themselves and will reduce prize money to maintain their margins, when media and levy payments inevitably reduce

Prize money directly impacts horse owners level of subsidy for a sport they love/enjoy…..bigger losses on their annual P&L!……less owners resulting in less horses in training?….. maybe more detrimental to Nat Hunt than flat?

Bookmaker total £’s to horse racing will reduce and sponsorships be withdrawn as contracts come up for renewal. Football is their main product nowadays and costs nothing in terms of Levy or Media Rights etc…….ironically the customer pays directly for the media rights, through home/pub subscriptions !

We know now clearly how Government perceive Betting and cannot expect any support, if anything the contrary with more regulation and higher taxes.

The only light could be with the outcomes from the Jockey Club and Ascot removing themselves by the end of this year from the RCA (which is meant to represent all racecourses) and how the sport operates as a result of this change……also a new BHA boss…...i suspect that there will be a lot of noise over the next year, which ultimately is about control and money.

What we do know is that the current level of declining income cannot support the current level of fixtures or number of racecourses, so expect change and more noise as we go through the process.

Boring industry stuff…..but reality and something thats happening now and IMO threatens a sport FJ’s enjoy

Roll on Nat Hunt season 2026/2027

And of course it goes deeper than just 'racing', the number of people and businesses working in related industries is enormous, if/when smaller courses close it will kill local areas/communities let alone the enormous breeding business that will become part redundant if/when race meetings/courses reduce.
It'll probably be 10-15 years before someone with half a brain realises that racing supports many business and regions, the likes of Cheltenham and York will continue to exist and no doubt thrive, but the likes of Redcar, Sedgefield, Cartmel, Carlisle, Plumpton, Fontwell, Wincanton and probably about a dozen others will likely disappear, and only when that happens will there be a realisation of just how intrinsically linked racing is with these locations....

 

[Quevega]

As a keen gardener
Even though it’s a difficult decision as you’re hoping that your plant will recover.
Sometimes you have to cut off the dead branches so that the energy distribution goes to the areas the plant needs to fully recover and thrive.

Sad, but that’s nature.
Same goes with business unfortunately.

 

[Istabraq]

As a keen gardener
Even though it’s a difficult decision as you’re hoping that your plant will recover.
Sometimes you have to cut off the dead branches so that the energy distribution goes to the areas the plant needs to fully recover and thrive.

Sad, but that’s nature.
Same goes with business unfortunately.

Yeah I get that, and I know you've always been an advocate for reducing the schedule and/or closing courses, but don't you think the main issue sits with how racing is funded and that there's a place for second rate/average racing ?
If racing was funded properly (and sustainably) I'd have no issue with a day out at Sedgefield or Plumpton knowing I'm watching class 4 at best horses, I do these kinds of meetings regularly and enjoy them as much as a big Saturday meeting and these are always well supported by local communities, it's a bit like the independent farm shop that's in your village, you know spuds are cheaper in Sainsburys but you feel a kind of obligation to shop locally.
I don't have all the answers but I'm a firm believer bookmakers caused this with account closures and restrictions long before any affordability issues were dreamt up, the less money they take on racing the less money they pay into the levy, it's a model designed to suit bookmakers....

 

[Quevega]

Yeah
There’s definitely more to it than closing courses etc.
It’s a bit like the government itself really. It’s hard to be certain how well they’re managing the finances when things outside their control or what’s gone before can have such impact.
Different branches with their own interests to serve will always create problems unfortunately.
Modern society has meant that more and more people have become entrenched in their ideas and beliefs via their personal algorithms.
Basically no fuckers are willing to compromise or back down from anything or admit they were wrong.
Politics and business has also gone further down this rabbit hole than ever before.

 

[Quevega]

The bookies are just another prime example of corporate greed.
Like the supermarkets and energy/fuel suppliers making record profits off the back of ordinary people paying much more for the same things.
Greedy cunts can’t take a reduction in profits to help the customers

 

[Istabraq]

Completely agree, in terms of racing though I’d love to know who sanctioned the model where bookmakers dictate how the sport is funded and the more people they stop from betting thus sending the sport into a funding crisis, the better it is for them, and they are allowed to do it unchallenged…

 

[robith]

C

What a blinded and uneducated view of betting shops the Prime minister must have that doesn't bode well for the industry one bit. it takes 30 seconds to see the facts that betting shops are closing and in significant decline with two of the three major chains announcing significant closures in the last few months. To categorise them with Vape Shops and American Candy stores is a disgrace and an insult to all those that work or are involved with shops, including customers. the proposal is pretty irrelevant as Betting Shops are not being opened anywhere but the fact he considers them in the same breath is embarrassingly uneducated, and that's our Prime Minister...

Counter point - we have a cognitive bias here because on here, mostly people gamble safely, predominantly on sport and do well. That is not the main focal point of these operators.

Let's take Entain for example who have the biggest retail footprint in the UK. They have around 2,300 retail sites - for context that is 96% of UK postcodes. Sainsburys have 1,480 stores.

63% of their business is gaming led. 50% of their retail is gaming led. And theses numbers are also an outcome of their large retail footprint, likely to be more skewed for those with fewer shops.

They have a large number of stores to circumnavigate the FOBT per store limits. Unfortunately I don't have the time to scrape and analysis Entain, but existing research shows that bookies are disproportionately targeted in areas of lower income and higher deprivation - 21% of premises are in the bottom tenth of deprived postcodes vs 2% in the least deprived.

I get that we all like to get on, but the biggest issue for the industry is rampant greed by bookmakers, and the evidence shows that retail footprint is targeted heavily at more economically vulnerable areas to increase gaming turnover. That's the disgrace imo, and a bigger slight on betting's name than calling out the predatory practises anyone with eyes on a UK high street can see

 

[robith]

The bookies are just another prime example of corporate greed.
Like the supermarkets and energy/fuel suppliers making record profits off the back of ordinary people paying much more for the same things.
Greedy cunts can’t take a reduction in profits to help the customers

As ever, I've used many words when Q has summarised it better in two sentences

 

[Danman]

Just seen the out for the season thread had lit up, i hold my breath every time !

 

[Wayward Lad]

Just had a surreal moment in a local Coral betting shop

Wanted a cash bet ante post on MotoGP, knew the price online with Coral/Lads, however initially looked on the SSBT’s

No market/No prices on SSBT’s

So went to counter to ask for price……answer if it’s not on SSBT’s no prices, no bet

So asked if he could look on his behind the counter system for ante post prices etc…….looked and no prices

So asked if he could make a call to H/O to request a price as I knew his Company had a market on MotoGP…….he answered by saying “thats for online only and not allowed to take a bet across the counter where no prices”

Shocked, I asked “what about F1”….thinking that this was a bigger sports betting market, with various markets created around the product

His response was that if you wanted to bet F1 then you had to bet through the SSBT’s and that “they were not allowed to take a F1 bet across the counter anymore”…….WTF!

I am going to test this policy through a local Lads shortly as I cannot believe this is true

Do any FJ’s have any similar experience where staff are saying they cannot accept a sports bet across the counter or where they won’t make a call for a price on a sports event where you know they have an online market for that event?

If this policy is true then I think it will all be about ‘liability management’ where the big operators want to control their sports betting markets margins/liability (apart from Horse/Dog/Football business) through digital methods rather than using staff decision making, who as we well know nowadays, by in large, don’t have any depth of betting nouse, regardless of their acceptance procedures, which they may/or may not understand/remember to apply when accepting a bet. I suppose the SSBT camera also helps in customer management, whilst the algorithm within the SSBT controls liability.

Whilst I can see why the bookmakers would want more of their business to go through their SSBT’s, especially if there is no middleman cost/commission, then it would be a further nail in the coffin for LBO’s in their current format IMO, as you don’t need the space of a high street retail premises paying high rent/rates etc for just 4 AWP’s and ‘x’ amount of SSBT’s…….SSBT’s that could in the future have a screen above showing horse racing/dog racing.

With more automation then why would you need a massive screen system, floor space, staff behind a counter……go a step further and become cashless god forbid and any large wins simply credited to your bank account. All transactions using a card loaded with credit. All trackable (tick with GC)

I will report back when I have visited Lads to check F1 betting a cross the counter - can’t be right surely

 

[Magpie]

If memory serves there was a horse that I was interested in that showed on odds checker and as I had no lads account I went to the shop to be told I can’t have a bet in shop as there were no odds and can only do it online. Ridiculous muppets

 

[Luke95]

Does anyone have any football antepost fancies? Don’t tend to back many singles but enjoy putting together a few different combinations. Some of my thoughts:

Prem - not too many fancies, I think Leeds and forest will go well and are value for top half finishes with a lot of the other ‘smaller’ clubs having European campaigns which can always be difficult to manage. Hull to finish bottom, I think they’re one of the weakest sides to be promoted in a long time. Also like Fulham to be relegated at 11/2, Arbeloa looks a massive risk to me.

Champ - Norwich top 8 my favourite pick, great form following manager change part way through last season and kept pretty much all their key players with a few decent additions.

League 1 - Think Leicester and Sheff Wed are worth taking on. Luton look solid all over and ended last season well, like them to win the league and promotion. Mk Dons top 6, they had a top end league 1 team in league 2, have made strong additions and have a manager with a number of promotions on his CV. Again will have a punt on promotion. However, probably my best bet across all the leagues is Leyton Orient top London team up against AFC Wimbledon and Bromley. They’ve lost Dom Ballard but got good money for him and have added some real quality across the pitch for this level. I actually like them to push for the play offs, while Wimbledon look just as weak as last year and Bromley are likely to be aiming to stay up, which looks just about their limit. I’d have Leyton Orient strong odds on, and surprised they’re still available at 5/4 in this market. Will also back them in the seasom handicap at +25. Burton I think will struggle and be relegated.

League 2 - Salford probs win it, ridiculous signings, but manager bit of an unknown. Bristol Rovers top 7 and top 3, Steve Evans just a master in the lower leagues, and ended last season on fire. Barnet top 7 also.

National League - Boreham Wood top 3. Drifted from 6/4 to 2/1 after opening weekend which is an overreaction to me. Arguably best manager in league and best players. Best player in from last season still there at the moment, and even if they do sell it will be for well over 1 mil which is unbelievable for this level. Players can be signed at any point on national league so i’m sure they’d make good use of the funds. I think they win the league.

Have combined a few of different versions of these And included some shorter picks in accas, like boro top 8, luton top 6. Gives a bit of interest for the season and hopefully land a few nice winners!

Have added Barcelona to win the Champions League at 7/1. A good defensive midfielder is something they’ve been missing for a while, and signing the best in the world in that position, Rodri, massively upgrades them.

 

[Wayward Lad]

Just had a surreal moment in a local Coral betting shop

Wanted a cash bet ante post on MotoGP, knew the price online with Coral/Lads, however initially looked on the SSBT’s

No market/No prices on SSBT’s

So went to counter to ask for price……answer if it’s not on SSBT’s no prices, no bet

So asked if he could look on his behind the counter system for ante post prices etc…….looked and no prices

So asked if he could make a call to H/O to request a price as I knew his Company had a market on MotoGP…….he answered by saying “thats for online only and not allowed to take a bet across the counter where no prices”

Shocked, I asked “what about F1”….thinking that this was a bigger sports betting market, with various markets created around the product

His response was that if you wanted to bet F1 then you had to bet through the SSBT’s and that “they were not allowed to take a F1 bet across the counter anymore”…….WTF!

I am going to test this policy through a local Lads shortly as I cannot believe this is true

Do any FJ’s have any similar experience where staff are saying they cannot accept a sports bet across the counter or where they won’t make a call for a price on a sports event where you know they have an online market for that event?

If this policy is true then I think it will all be about ‘liability management’ where the big operators want to control their sports betting markets margins/liability (apart from Horse/Dog/Football business) through digital methods rather than using staff decision making, who as we well know nowadays, by in large, don’t have any depth of betting nouse, regardless of their acceptance procedures, which they may/or may not understand/remember to apply when accepting a bet. I suppose the SSBT camera also helps in customer management, whilst the algorithm within the SSBT controls liability.

Whilst I can see why the bookmakers would want more of their business to go through their SSBT’s, especially if there is no middleman cost/commission, then it would be a further nail in the coffin for LBO’s in their current format IMO, as you don’t need the space of a high street retail premises paying high rent/rates etc for just 4 AWP’s and ‘x’ amount of SSBT’s…….SSBT’s that could in the future have a screen above showing horse racing/dog racing.

With more automation then why would you need a massive screen system, floor space, staff behind a counter……go a step further and become cashless god forbid and any large wins simply credited to your bank account. All transactions using a card loaded with credit. All trackable (tick with GC)

I will report back when I have visited Lads to check F1 betting a cross the counter - can’t be right surely

Just checked with live chat and it’s correct, no F1 bets across the counter in Coral

Was for some reason also sent the rules on F1 but no details of method of bet acceptance within them?

Took the opportunity to look through the general betting shop rules and once again no mention on method of acceptance per different market etc

Looked at Lads betting shop rules and same format as Coral, so I think we can assume same rules re method of acceptance

How has this not been picked up by the RP?…..as it’s a fundamental change in bet acceptance method from yesteryear

Does this apply to most sports betting markets apart from Horse/Dog/Football?……I’d love to see what the ante post index shows behind the counter in Lads/Coral

Got to be a strategy to manage their margin/liability and not trusting staff to comply with their bet acceptance procedures

All in all not good for punters methinks

 

[Istabraq]

@Wayward Lad
The modern bookmaker. they can your online accounts and offer reduced service in shops.
I use Corals on Sat morning for odd horse bets, I very often look at their online prices and places and compare with what they offer in shop and I'm always amazed at the number of differences.

I was also in Betfreds last winter for an NFL play and there were a mountain of markets not available in shop that were quoted online and shop staff said they can't take bets over the counter, all NFL had to be through the machine....

 

[Eggs]

Just seen the out for the season thread had lit up, i hold my breath every time !

….just for info, I do try and keep an index of all OFTS horses in post #1 of that thread. As always the intention is to keep traffic to a minimum in there for exactly the reason you highlight

 

[Danman]

….just for info, I do try and keep an index of all OFTS horses in post #1 of that thread. As always the intention is to keep traffic to a minimum in there for exactly the reason you highlight

That's why i put my response to the 'ofts' message on the 'general chat' thread, didn't want to panic people !

 

[Wayward Lad]

@Wayward Lad
The modern bookmaker. they can your online accounts and offer reduced service in shops.
I use Corals on Sat morning for odd horse bets, I very often look at their online prices and places and compare with what they offer in shop and I'm always amazed at the number of differences.

I was also in Betfreds last winter for an NFL play and there were a mountain of markets not available in shop that were quoted online and shop staff said they can't take bets over the counter, all NFL had to be through the machine....

But if the market is on the SSBT, in that particular Coral/Lads shop, then why can’t you place a cash bet across the counter on that market? Especially if there isn’t a price on the behind the counter system?

Logically it has to be either margin, liability management or/and taxation……either way it is a bad sign IMO for the future, as how long before all bets have to go through the SSBT?

 

[archie]

It feels like half the posts on here are crowing about getting one over the bookies and the other half moaning about not being able to get a bet on. As Putin and Trump have found, if you declare war you must expect your enemy to take reprisals.

The internet has hugely expanded betting markets and customer bases. Before it existed, many small bookies had a personal relationship with their high rollers and they had special treatment ranging from individual odds to hospitality in the Cheltenham tent. These days it's all algorithms, rules and regulations with Kryten manning the front desk in a betting shop. It Isn't going to change any time soon.

 

[Wayward Lad]

It feels like half the posts on here are crowing about getting one over the bookies and the other half moaning about not being able to get a bet on. As Putin and Trump have found, if you declare war you must expect your enemy to take reprisals.

The internet has hugely expanded betting markets and customer bases. Before it existed, many small bookies had a personal relationship with their high rollers and they had special treatment ranging from individual odds to hospitality in the Cheltenham tent. These days it's all algorithms, rules and regulations with Kryten manning the front desk in a betting shop. It Isn't going to change any time soon.

Had to Google ‘Kryten’ as didn’t watch any Red Dwarf

Polite, Neurotic Mechanoid………pretty much spot on analogy Archie