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General Chat

Killiney said:
The NHC has in my opinion suffered from confused thinking in recent years. The need to make it safer led to not only a reduced distance, changes to qualifying rules for the entries and changes to the number of races amateurs need to qualify. What Jackie Moon said about big stables having a monopoly on the best amateurs is true but is in my opinion only part of the story. The number of riders eligible to ride has dropped significantly and has in part led to the race becoming uncompetitive. As the oldest race at Cheltenham it’s such a shame that rather than address the issues caused by the authorities they have dodged them and opened it to professionals. Putting aside my betting hat for a moment, I for one regret what is happening.
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The race has become uncompetitive primarily because wealthy owners and dominant trainers with access to the best "amateurs" and best horses, have been able to milk the race really.
Which is what you've said really.
And I agree that the changes to the eligibility rules for amateur riders limited options for smaller yards who might otherwise have had a crack with a lesser animal they thought might compete against the big stables.
But even prior to that rule change the race had already started to go down the same route.
It now being a handicap will at least allow other horses to compete on comparatively equal terms.

And for those that have suggested these "overall changes" might not hinder or slow down the dominance of the bigger Irish stables then look at the race last year.

https://www.attheraces.com/form/horse/Corbetts-Cross/IRE/3377125

None of the Irish horses would have been able to run and would have been forced elsewhere if they wanted to run at the festival.
I'd be fairly sure that the three Irish horses would have chosen another race at the festival and enhanced those.
And reasonably sure that with the absence of those horses that many other connections would have considered the race a viable opportunity for success at the festival.

If you look at recent renewals it's clear to see why UK trainers and smaller Irish yards have not supported the race, as all too often you're coming up against Elliot or Mullins with experienced second season chasers or horses with ratings in excess of 150.

The new proposals if true should mean that Willie will certainly struggle with his novice chasers next season, as he will find it hard to get any well handicapped enough for the 2 new races IMO.

Personally not a big traditionalist myself and the fact it's the oldest race has little bearing IMO. If it's the oldest but now one of the worst races then why keep it as it is ?
Same with amateur riders having their own races at the biggest festival for the Sport.
Maybe one race is enough for them really.
Especially given that the "Top" amateurs are not really amateur at all. Financially and Experience/Competency wise.
 
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Do we really need this many handicap chases? Half of them are basically carbon copies of what we already have other than the fact they're only for novices
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Quevega said:
I'll add that it has been a successful hunting ground for us lot, but the race itself was becoming fucking shite.
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But I like money and would happily watch 8mins of shite to fund 2 weeks in the sun ……Blackpool it is from now on :frown-new:
 
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HoldenTheReins said:
Four 3m+ handicap chases. Just ridiculous.
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Given some of handicap chases didn't even have full fields this year and number of entries have been on a decline I don't see how these changes will fix anything other than make antepost harder
 
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Zachx02 said:
Do we really need this many handicap chases? Half of them are basically carbon copies of what we already have other than the fact they're only for novices
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There is no doubt that there are 2 many graded races in NH racing full stop, and the horse population in the UK and IRE when taken separately does not support the number of graded races and it's become monopolised by a few stables both sides of the Irish sea. And has helped create a behemoth in WP Mullins.

Cheltenham taking these steps will hopefully trickle down to the overall race programmes and over time we see a bit of equalling out.

With regards these changes, It should work in theory as the very best Novice chasers should compete in the 2 grade 1's and all the other novices rated below 145 have the 2 options and if they've got the required number of runs the open handicaps also.
But I think the hope is that the Novices generally stick to their own races and we have less novices in the other four handicaps, and that this may encourage more trainers not skipping the race in fear of the well handicapped novices. So I think they're hoping that all races are well stocked and competitive.
We'll see if it works over time.

I'd expect it may well prove a good move myself, and just disappointed they've not made the small step of making the Pipe for novices only.
They've effectively and potentially ruled out quite a large portion of horses IMO as there will be quite a few UK based horses that would have previously ran at the festival no longer be able or bother to run.

Because unless a novice hurdler has had 5 runs it's options are graded races only.
It must be quite difficult to get a horse fit and with good opportunities to run every month from October onwards.
I think they hope that many will take the graded route and boost the fields in the 3 grade 1's but I'm not convinced the smaller yards will support/choose this option. Which has been demonstrated (how it's panned out) in recent times in the Novice chase department.
 
Zachx02 said:
Do we really need this many handicap chases? Half of them are basically carbon copies of what we already have other than the fact they're only for novices
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I've always though the only handicaps that should be staged at the festival should be finals, right now only the Pertemps is that.
Every Saturday has pretty much a decent valuable handicap hurdle and/or handicap chase, the festival needs to be different, staging effectively the same race that we see at Ascot, Sandown. Haydock and Doncaster every weekend doesn't enhance the festival, create a qualification criteria and you have an event that feels special, right now the only handicaps that I think feel special are the County, Pertemps and possibly the Ultima.
Yes the changes will improve competitiveness because they'll likely be fully subscribed, but so are all those races at Ascot, Sandown.......
 
Istabraq said:
I've always though the only handicaps that should be staged at the festival should be finals, right now only the Pertemps is that.
Every Saturday has pretty much a decent valuable handicap hurdle and/or handicap chase, the festival needs to be different, staging effectively the same race that we see at Ascot, Sandown. Haydock and Doncaster every weekend doesn't enhance the festival, create a qualification criteria and you have an event that feels special, right now the only handicaps that I think feel special are the County, Pertemps and possibly the Ultima.
Yes the changes will improve competitiveness because they'll likely be fully subscribed, but so are all those races at Ascot, Sandown.......
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I agree but they need 24/28 races, and that won;t change much for some while I reckon.
I think they should follow the US with this and create race names that have the desired outcome you are seeking.
And distance wise they could make them more uniform.
Call all races Champion for a start.

Champion 2 mile hurdler.
Champion 2 mile handicap hurdler.
Champion 2 1/2 mile handicap hurdler.

I think most will get the idea.

The older names/ or sponsor names can be left in brackets.

Having qualifying criteria over and above the handicap mark and number of races to get that has proven to be farcical with the pertemps various efforts over the years. The final is ok but the qualifying races stink to high heaven.
 
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Kautostar said:
More handicaps over graded races is a bad move imo. The bookies will love it and your once a year punter but for those of us who take ante post betting seriously it’s making our job to make a profit a lot harder as the turners and NHC were generally easy money.
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I'll wait until the back end of March before I put my money where my mouth is but looking at data I reckon the handicaps is where most profit can be made. Done a lot of analysis and it's yet to be proved (I fully accept I won't have been the first to do this and it may fall on its arse) but might just need to change tack slightly going forwards to remain profitable
 
Quevega said:
I agree but they need 24 races, and that won;t change much for some while I reckon.
I think they should follow the US with this and create race names that have the desired outcome you are seeking.
And distance wise they could make them more uniform.
Call all races Champion for a start.

Champion 2 mile hurdler.
Champion 2 mile handicap hurdler.
Champion 2 1/2 mile handicap hurdler.

I think most will get the idea.

The older names/ or sponsor names can be left in brackets.

Having qualifying criteria over and above the handicap mark and number of races to get that has proven to be farcical with the pertemps various efforts over the years. The final is ok but the qualifying races stink to high heaven.
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Yeah, nothing can be perfect, I just remember a time, as I'm sure you do, when there were 18 meaningful races and all were different.
Beam me back to the 80s....
 
Just need to sort the fucking wifi/internet connection now and wer'e laughing.
 
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Istabraq said:
Yeah, nothing can be perfect, I just remember a time, as I'm sure you do, when there were 18 meaningful races and all were different.
Beam me back to the 80s....
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Choices mate, they're fucking everywhere.
Preferred 3 channels on Telly myself.
A world when we had attention spans and patience.

Now every youngster has ADHD or something similar.
And the older generation are developing autism and asberger symptoms as a form of self defense.
 
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Quevega said:
https://www.attheraces.com/news/2024/September/26/cheltenham-festival-changes-explained

Other changes, around pricing and where you can drink and park etc.

No more downing a pint between races cos some kid in a blue Gilet says you can't control yourself from throwing it at people or jockeys.
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I'd absolutely keep drink away from trackside or the bookies. Apart from the mutts who think it's smart to throw a £7 pint at a £300k thoroughbred, people dodging around carrying a pint, looking for a price and colliding with a muppet whose nose is blocked by white powder and is glued to his iphone is a recipe for carnage.
 
archie said:
I'd absolutely keep drink away from trackside or the bookies. Apart from the mutts who think it's smart to throw a £7 pint at a £300k thoroughbred, people dodging around carrying a pint, looking for a price and colliding with a muppet whose nose is blocked by white powder and is glued to his iphone is a recipe for carnage.
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Don't worry, stick to the members and they'll continue to police you and those around you.:encouragement: (they've renamed the Totalitarian enclosure)

I'm not a believer in assuming everyone will misbehave so everyone should therefore be restricted/policed.
Freedom for all I say.
Especially at those prices:highly_amused:

Tattersalls and Best Mate. I'll take my chances. And look after myself.
I think the downing a pint between every race might be part of the issue.
Most Northern tracks have relaxed the drinking rules near the course (York and Donny) and it's been a far more enjoyable and relaxing experience. That includes Leger day and Ebor etc.

The drugs is another matter altogether. And you're implying that everyone who imbibes/partakes becomes a Nob. I'm more inclined to think that Nobs become bigger Nobs but they were Nobs to start with anyway.
And he won't be glued to his iphone cos there's no fucking reception. :rolleyes:

For diversity and inclusivity.
Women can be Nobs also.
So can trans.
And all races.
And ages.
 
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