General Chat

[Yosser]

Just been refused cash bets at William hill on grounds of affordability. FFS. Those one pound Yankees must be causing harm……

What!!!! Money over the counter GV?

 

[Guinness Village]

In the cash machines. I don’t have any online accounts. I spend more at the local…

 

[Yosser]

In the cash machines. I don’t have any online accounts. I spend more at the local…

I am going down there tomorrow to do exactly the same thing. out of interest, what stakes were you trying to put on? mine are £20 and i have one for £40 so will see what happens.

 

[Glasgow Ronnie]

What I have done is moved from machine to machine, or if they have only one let someone else use it in between

 

[Guinness Village]

I am going down there tomorrow to do exactly the same thing. out of interest, what stakes were you trying to put on? mine are £20 and i have one for £40 so will see what happens.

I put 2 £20 win bets on. I was told I’d gone over my monthly limit. One win at 11/2. I picked up but wasn’t allowed to have anymore bets until next Wednesday!
I normally stick a couple of quid ew lucky 15’s on antepost.

 

[Lobos]

Just use cash instead of card surely??

 

[Yosser]

These are the reasons i was thinking long and hard about going round again this year. I suspected bookies would ramp it up in shops where they would usually be a safe haven for folk to place a bet. It's only a matter of time before people are being either live monitored on security cameras or flagged for facial recognition after a big bet/win and machines getting locked etc while you are trying to get bets on even with cash. That probably sounds wild but the current legislations are protecting them and letting them run amok and the technology is there. The end is looking increasingly near in terms of Cheltenham antepost betting but if i can't have a bet on that, i will stop all together.

 

[Yosser]

I put 2 £20 win bets on. I was told I’d gone over my monthly limit. One win at 11/2. I picked up but wasn’t allowed to have anymore bets until next Wednesday!
I normally stick a couple of quid ew lucky 15’s on antepost.

I bet you all the tea in China, if you was sat there all day playing roulette you wouldn't have had any kind of restriction placed.

 

[Guinness Village]

Just use cash instead of card surely??

I only use cash, but seems to be getting more difficult

 

[Kautostar]

I only use cash, but seems to be getting more difficult

It’s definitely getting harder. I’ve been quizzed a few times now, what’s your name? Where do you work etc? They make you feel like a criminal. I try and stealthily get in and out as quickly as possible before anybody notices me. It’s usually better to do it during busy periods while they’re serving a few customers. Have your bets mapped out ready to go and quickly put them on and leave. Usually better to spread them around a bit too if you’re wanting bigger stakes on.
I feel the end is coming….restrictions, affordability, tax rises for bookmakers will mean shop closures…..and if the government get their way ID cards and a cashless society will be the final nail.

 

[Guinness Village]

It’s definitely getting harder. I’ve been quizzed a few times now, what’s your name? Where do you work etc? They make you feel like a criminal. I try and stealthily get in and out as quickly as possible before anybody notices me. It’s usually better to do it during busy periods while they’re serving a few customers. Have your bets mapped out ready to go and quickly put them on and leave. Usually better to spread them around a bit too if you’re wanting bigger stakes on.
I feel the end is coming….restrictions, affordability, tax rises for bookmakers will mean shop closures…..and if the government get their way ID cards and a cashless society will be the final nail.

I feel that I could sit at a slot casino machine and lose a grand and nobody would bat an eyelid

 

[Wayward Lad]

I put 2 £20 win bets on. I was told I’d gone over my monthly limit. One win at 11/2. I picked up but wasn’t allowed to have anymore bets until next Wednesday!
I normally stick a couple of quid ew lucky 15’s on antepost.

Many questions come to mind GV;

- How the hell do they track accurately someone’s trade, considering they have relief staff cover in many shops?
- How are any bets placed in the self service machines taken into account?…..the answer has to be that none are from an affordability point of view
- How are any stakes places on the FOBT’s taken into account?…..once again has to be that none are taken into account, unless maybe using a card
- why aren’t winning bets taken into account with a customers win/lose amount?…..why only bets placed?…..affordability is not based upon bets placed but by money lost surely?
- how did they decide upon your ‘monthly limit’?…..is this a default amount for anybody who refuses to divulge any personal or financial information?
- does this ‘monthly limit’ apply to betting on machines and if so, how do they apply it?

And all this with the background of speculation around the Nov budget and how it may close most, if not all, of the current UK betting offices, if the level of tax increases suggested, happen

 

[Yosser]

It’s definitely getting harder. I’ve been quizzed a few times now, what’s your name? Where do you work etc? They make you feel like a criminal. I try and stealthily get in and out as quickly as possible before anybody notices me. It’s usually better to do it during busy periods while they’re serving a few customers. Have your bets mapped out ready to go and quickly put them on and leave. Usually better to spread them around a bit too if you’re wanting bigger stakes on.
I feel the end is coming….restrictions, affordability, tax rises for bookmakers will mean shop closures…..and if the government get their way ID cards and a cashless society will be the final nail.

Im fortunate in my local Ladbrokes because I know all the girls that work in there. 2 of them even ask me to let them know what horses I am backing so they can back them but like this morning I am heading out to hills and was last night looking at betfreds prices. I am going to do what I can to spread around my bets whilst keeping them as local as possible. I was thinking of going to paddy power but I'm not driving 15 miles to Boltanistan to be turned away especially if they don't have prices on machines. My king George bets have been struck online amongst other little ante post meetings but will use the online service just for small bets. I am going to use that for topping up on horses nearer the time and whilst it looks like I've had a small(ISH) bet, the majority of it will have been into the shop. If I get asked to prove who I am when it comes to collecting them I will give them that information and I will be pulling up stumps, that will be it for me. I can't see me doing it again next year. It's going to be insufferable. I think a few have already given up. I am going to try even harder to absolutely hammer them.

 

[Glasgow Ronnie]

I don't know if it's been mentioned, William Hill newest machines have camera on them right in the centre

 

[BigChaang]

Im fortunate in my local Ladbrokes because I know all the girls that work in there. 2 of them even ask me to let them know what horses I am backing so they can back them but like this morning I am heading out to hills and was last night looking at betfreds prices. I am going to do what I can to spread around my bets whilst keeping them as local as possible. I was thinking of going to paddy power but I'm not driving 15 miles to Boltanistan to be turned away especially if they don't have prices on machines. My king George bets have been struck online amongst other little ante post meetings but will use the online service just for small bets. I am going to use that for topping up on horses nearer the time and whilst it looks like I've had a small(ISH) bet, the majority of it will have been into the shop. If I get asked to prove who I am when it comes to collecting them I will give them that information and I will be pulling up stumps, that will be it for me. I can't see me doing it again next year. It's going to be insufferable. I think a few have already given up. I am going to try even harder to absolutely hammer them.

Boltanistan !! ... !!..

 

[Yosser]

Mission accomplished. 120 sods just placed in about 3 minutes and straight out. There were 4 machines in there. I can confirm there are cameras on them. There was 1 that didn't have one so used that one. I will be back again on Friday so will report back if there is any skulduggery

 

[Wayward Lad]

Im fortunate in my local Ladbrokes because I know all the girls that work in there. 2 of them even ask me to let them know what horses I am backing so they can back them but like this morning I am heading out to hills and was last night looking at betfreds prices. I am going to do what I can to spread around my bets whilst keeping them as local as possible. I was thinking of going to paddy power but I'm not driving 15 miles to Boltanistan to be turned away especially if they don't have prices on machines. My king George bets have been struck online amongst other little ante post meetings but will use the online service just for small bets. I am going to use that for topping up on horses nearer the time and whilst it looks like I've had a small(ISH) bet, the majority of it will have been into the shop. If I get asked to prove who I am when it comes to collecting them I will give them that information and I will be pulling up stumps, that will be it for me. I can't see me doing it again next year. It's going to be insufferable. I think a few have already given up. I am going to try even harder to absolutely hammer them.

How is it right in fairness, law, or the spirit of the law, to ask affordability questions on payment and withhold monies unless a customer complies?

 

[Yosser]

How is it right in fairness, law, or the spirit of the law, to ask affordability questions on payment and withhold monies unless a customer complies?

I had a bookmark but it was on my old laptop, it explained by the rules of gambling that they were not allowed to ask those questions or demand proof of funds etc but i binned that laptop and haven't got a clue where i found the rule. Basically it was saying that if a bookmaker accepted the bet in the first place and you are of legal age etc, they have to pay out. Apparently this has been used by people threatening court and they always end up paying out but i have read on the twittersphere of people being barred from shops after collection.

 

[Wayward Lad]

After reading about the 15 people who are being prosecuted by the GC (not Met) for ‘insider trading and cheating’ (GC words not mine) when placing winning bets on the date of the last General Election, it has got me thinking about how this particular incident relates to day to day ante post betting markets.

For a fair while I have been thinking about the similarity between ‘insider trading’ in shares/stocks and betting markets, particularly ante post betting markets and what, if any, difference there is between them when someone buys/bets based upon insider information. The fact that a bet can now be traded, either cash out or back and lay, means that the horse doesnt have to win in order to profit from the transaction.

The GC say it’s against the law to use insider trading information to take advantage (cheat) and is against one of their three key principles, not being ‘Fair and Open’…..and this is what the 15 people are being prosecuted for. Trials in two years time for the 15 (not sure why the delay)

Based upon what the GC are stating is criminal law for insider trading, then I think there is a strong case against ‘connections’ who bet ante post AND bookmakers who manage ante post markets, particularly around ante post markets about a months hence, rather than longer term and that they are technically insider trading, not being fair and open and breaking the law.

Firstly Connections……..people who are ‘connected’ in anyway that they get information on a horses running plans ie it’s going to run or it’s not going to run in a certain race and bet accordingly, to take advantage of that market, are in the GC terms ‘insider trading’ and breaking the law. How many times do we see the first and second favs for O’Brien in an ante post race flip flop, the fav drift and proved to be right with the horse not running? Whilst it’s not certain that the horse that does run will win, then as we know on this forum, if getting the value regularly, then you should win over time. How is this ‘open and fair’ to the average joe customer and not ‘insider trading’? Whilst there is a key difference with the shares/stocks example, as a win is pretty much guaranteed, then if you know the short priced fav in an ante post race is not going to run, then I would suggest over time you will win and as stated earlier, you could grade that horse at the larger than SP price to guarantee a profit. I remember when not that long ago Illinois drifted from fav to second fav and I think the second fav (Scandinavia?) changed to fav from second fav, that the price move was spot on as Illinois was retired shortly afterwards? Nothing reported in the papers about the market move before the announcement. It appears that this practice is known to happen in racing, is acceptable and has been going on for years…….yet there hasnt always been a GC or a case where the GC have stated what their interpretation is of insider trading in criminal terms.

Secondly Bookmakers…….whilst I believe that bookmakers are no longer allowed to buy information directly following some press articles ten or so years back, then have no doubt that bets that are laid to certain ‘faces’ are technically marking their card. They will have information on certain customers betting patterns through data which ‘suggest’ that customer gets intel/information from a particular stable, without any direct knowledge of a customer and their connection to a stable or particular horse, which they may have as well. When this customer bets they may lay the bet knowing it’s ‘informed’ and then shorten the selection accordingly. They want the customer to bet with them so they, in an indirect way, technically ‘buy’ the intel……how is this in line with ‘open and fair’ GC law and not using ‘insider information to take advantage’? I would suggest that where bookmakers drift a horse in an ante post market for a race a months hence where nothing has changed for the main protagonists etc that therefore this is normally based upon intel/information (as very few ‘take a view’ nowadays) …..so if this information isn’t widely available to the general public why isn’t it ‘insider trading’? Using the Illinois example then when they drifted Illinois and moved Scandinavia to fav, surely this is cheating if they suspected through their intel that Illinois would not run? To comply with the ‘open and fair’ principle then bookmakers should suspend the market when the information isn’t widely available to the public.

The above insider trading practices operated by connections and bookmakers have been going on for years and will be very hard for the GC to prove to a criminal case threshold, so I suspect will continue for now. However if the GC get going on the prosecution side with ‘insider trading’ in betting terms following the election date scandal, then ante post markets could be threatened, we could see more suspended markets or certain horse prices suspended when there is negative intel around them?

Gonna get back in me box now and have a nap in the sun

 

[Guinness Village]

Many questions come to mind GV;

- How the hell do they track accurately someone’s trade, considering they have relief staff cover in many shops?
- How are any bets placed in the self service machines taken into account?…..the answer has to be that none are from an affordability point of view
- How are any stakes places on the FOBT’s taken into account?…..once again has to be that none are taken into account, unless maybe using a card
- why aren’t winning bets taken into account with a customers win/lose amount?…..why only bets placed?…..affordability is not based upon bets placed but by money lost surely?
- how did they decide upon your ‘monthly limit’?…..is this a default amount for anybody who refuses to divulge any personal or financial information?
- does this ‘monthly limit’ apply to betting on machines and if so, how do they apply it?

And all this with the background of speculation around the Nov budget and how it may close most, if not all, of the current UK betting offices, if the level of tax increases suggested, happen

They approached me on the grounds of a well being check. Now, I have had several of these over the past 6 months and all at William hill shops, including the 2 on course at Cheltenham. But only when I’ve been to pick up. Apparently triggered at £5k and above on course. £500 in high street shop.
This time it was to ask how much I could afford to lose every month. I didn’t really think and said £500. So this would be an application awaiting approval. The same day I picked up £433 and £976 from 2 separate in shop cash bets. Naively I thought that would keep me out of mischief for a couple of months. But, no , the next day I placed 2 £20 win cash bets and was told I was over my limit. Apparently I can bet up to £500 divided by 30 every day, regardless of profit or loss. To ammend this situation, they said they would apply for me to have £2k per month and see where that went.