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Champion Bumper 2020

Eggs said:
....Simon Rowlands’ sectional analysis;

https://www.attheraces.com/blogs/sectional-spotlight
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This is probably against the grain but I find all this sectional stuff to be a lot of just random waffle.

You seem to be able to interpret the data however you like :highly_amused:



Probably some ignorance on my side, but I haven't seen anybody actually use it successfully as part of their punting armoury (including Simon Rowlands)?

It just seems popular because it's the 'newest' bit of information.
 
Kevloaf said:
This is probably against the grain but I find all this sectional stuff to be a lot of just random waffle.

You seem to be able to interpret the data however you like :


Probably some ignorance on my side, but I haven't seen anybody actually use it successfully as part of their punting armoury (including Simon Rowlands)?

It just seems popular because it's the 'newest' bit of information.
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...coincidentally, listening to Mick Fitzgerald on ATR this afternoon saying he sectionally timed Goshen ahead of the Festival coming to the conclusion it was the winner of the Triumph (?). Fitzgerald must be a stopwatch user, I’ve heard him talk of timing how long horses spend in the air whilst jumping a fence.

Saying that, I don’t see him putting up many winners.
 
Kevloaf said:
This is probably against the grain but I find all this sectional stuff to be a lot of just random waffle.

You seem to be able to interpret the data however you like :highly_amused:



Probably some ignorance on my side, but I haven't seen anybody actually use it successfully as part of their punting armoury (including Simon Rowlands)?

It just seems popular because it's the 'newest' bit of information.
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He does incorporate it in his punting from time to time and he does fairly well, judging by his ATR articles last year anyway. Like all things time/speed recorded it only shows what a horse has/can do and not necessarily what they may do again/next. I do like to see it when they break down very big margin winners to see if it is above the norm or just visually very good.
 
Will give it a read later.

I suppose I could actualy invest quite a bit of time into sectionals this summer as a bit of a trial. I'm all for constantly evolving and improving. I just could do with being convinced it's worthwhile at the end of it before I invest a lot of time.



I know Shishkin, Asterion Forlonge and Fiddlerontheroof all put up time figures worthy of winning a Supreme this season according to Andy Holding's time figures... winner selected, but the others get ignored?

That's why "the time boys liked it" annoys me a bit :highly_amused: ... it only ever gets highlighted seemingly with a winner. The only one that springs to mind where "the time boys got it wrong" was that flat horse that I've sort of forgotten the name of. Might have been a Mark Johnston horse? Began with a V maybe?
 
I won’t dismiss times, like you Kev I’m always happy to consider potential new edges, but the issue with novices is they haven’t peaked, many beat up on inferior horses on route to Cheltenham, it’s rarer these days but you could have a machine win a class 4 race then win a 3 runner graded race where the other 2 don’t complete and the times will tell us nothing about the horses true ability.
I know overall times aren’t always great but sectionals allow us to analyse how a horse quickens at a crucial point so I can see the benefit, assuming of course the horse is asked to quicken.
I think times, sectionals and visual evidence all need to be considered in unison...
 
Kevloaf said:
Will give it a read later.

I suppose I could actualy invest quite a bit of time into sectionals this summer as a bit of a trial. I'm all for constantly evolving and improving. I just could do with being convinced it's worthwhile at the end of it before I invest a lot of time.



I know Shishkin, Asterion Forlonge and Fiddlerontheroof all put up time figures worthy of winning a Supreme this season according to Andy Holding's time figures... winner selected, but the others get ignored?

That's why "the time boys liked it" annoys me a bit :highly_amused: ... it only ever gets highlighted seemingly with a winner. The only one that springs to mind where "the time boys got it wrong" was that flat horse that I've sort of forgotten the name of. Might have been a Mark Johnston horse? Began with a V maybe?
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Visinari..........
 
Wasn't Visinari more to do with perceived Stride length/cadence and potentially being very good etc ?
 
Outlaw said:
Wasn't Visinari more to do with perceived Stride length/cadence and potentially being very good etc ?
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That came out as part of the sectional analysis, so it's under the same umbrella of "the time boys" liking it.

Visinari is the only high profile 'flop' I can remember?
 
Kevloaf said:
That came out as part of the sectional analysis, so it's under the same umbrella of "the time boys" liking it.

Visinari is the only high profile 'flop' I can remember?
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Under the same Umbrella aye but i seem to recall they got very excited about him sustaining his cadence over a longer trip, and whilst he somewhat did flop on subsequent starts his debut was his clear top speed figs and proof of the pudding with him will be when he's over 8-10F this year(or whenever). At least thats what Mr Rowlands/Willoughby will be clinging on too :devilish:

Anyhow enough flat racing trash , tomorrows bumper got some useful sorts on paper and looks to be well above average going forward. Plenty must of been Listening to Tony Mullins that preview night as even if his is a rocket 6/5 about him looks mighty short !
 
Outlaw said:
Under the same Umbrella aye but i seem to recall they got very excited about him sustaining his cadence over a longer trip, and whilst he somewhat did flop on subsequent starts his debut was his clear top speed figs and proof of the pudding with him will be when he's over 8-10F this year(or whenever). At least thats what Mr Rowlands/Willoughby will be clinging on too :devilish:

Anyhow enough flat racing trash , tomorrows bumper got some useful sorts on paper and looks to be well above average going forward. Plenty must of been Listening to Tony Mullins that preview night as even if his is a rocket 6/5 about him looks mighty short !
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Quite surprised at the price of the giggs horse.......3/1 in places.

Third lto has been boosted on both accords especially with FH winning the champion bumper.
 
Craigy14 said:
Quite surprised at the price of the giggs horse.......3/1 in places.

Third lto has been boosted on both accords especially with FH winning the champion bumper.
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Yeah sets clear form with both ahead winning and obvs one was the fez winner, Patrick on Tony's rather than Willies obvs catches the eye even without the whispers but backing unraced bumper horses at that price won't keep us in the game long will it. Robcour horse be tidy they will hope and Micheal Looby was keen to point out Fentons is well though of too.
 
That was a nice surprise. Willie said he would be happy with first four but there didn't seem to any excuses in a truly run race.

A small ray of light in difficult times.
 
archie said:
That was a nice surprise. Willie said he would be happy with first four but there didn't seem to any excuses in a truly run race.

A small ray of light in difficult times.
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The winner one of yours archie ?
If so well done, could be a decent horse.

What can you tell us about the pilot, I know nothing/little of her but it looked an assured ride to my eye....
 
Yes, I bought him after Aintree last year and we've been waiting for him to tell Willie that he was ready to roll. He beat Frontal Assault by further than Ferny Hollow and a first time RPR of 127 is quite decent. He's a fine big horse that might be better suited to a galloping track so to do that at Clonmel was very encouraging.

After a little to-ing and fro-ing, I'm now down to just 4 in training:
Kemboy
Cadmium
Robin De Carlow
Captain Kangaroo

Jody is Paul's sister. Well worth her 7lb.
 
Any further thoughts on the Bumper?

Only RPRs but the first 3 home had the following stats:
RPR for first race/RPR for Cheltenham

128/141 Ferny Hollow
129/138 Appreciate It
123/127 Queens Brook

Last year, it was
131/135 Envoi Allen
126/126 Blue Sari
111/132 Thyme Hill
113/129 Abacadabras

Has the scale been warped or were the first two very good?

As already said, in probably the last bumper of the season, Captain Kangaroo was given 127 for his debut win.
 
archie said:
Any further thoughts on the Bumper?

Only RPRs but the first 3 home had the following stats:
RPR for first race/RPR for Cheltenham

128/141 Ferny Hollow
129/138 Appreciate It
123/127 Queens Brook

Last year, it was
131/135 Envoi Allen
126/126 Blue Sari
111/132 Thyme Hill
113/129 Abacadabras

Has the scale been warped or were the first two very good?

As already said, in probably the last bumper of the season, Captain Kangaroo was given 127 for his debut win.
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I would see it as slippage in RPR. They underestimated last year and over corrected this year. At least they have a basis for rating Captain Kangaroo, but how they arrived at a rating of 135 for Bob Olinger (who I like) based on 1 run against other ex PTP runners beggars belief
 
That does seem odd archie.
Had the bumper been a new race I could have understood an overreaction but they’ve had the best part of 30 years to assess performances in the race.
Seems all the more staggering given Envoi Allen’s achievements this year...
 
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