2022 Gold Cup

[Craigy14]

I hope they don't go for the King George with Chantry House, something tells me he's not right for the race.
But Henderson probably doesn't see many other options.
He could run well in it, but doesn't look quick enough to me.
Still like him for this though.
Not that that last race told us much.
Apart from he's a more intelligent horse than The Big Breakaway, who's as stupid as it gets.

I agree Q, he seems like the step up will suit 100% imo. Although today wasn’t telling us much it confirms any doubts he stays 3m no problem, he won’t run 3m2f before the GC but I don’t see it being an issue, he looks a stayer.

He jumped well which was good to see and beating a race fit rival easily always helps.

 

[Spectre]

Irrespective of his jumping I'd also think The Big Breakaway was just having a spin for a handicap somewhere, and it was a complete nothing race for both horses. There's no way the Tizzard's were going to let TBB get anywhere near CH.

 

[Quevega]

Irrespective of his jumping I'd also think The Big Breakaway was just having a spin for a handicap somewhere, and it was a complete nothing race for both horses. There's no way the Tizzard's were going to let TBB get anywhere near CH.

Not the best race planner/handicap plotters though are they ?

 

[Saxon Warrior]

Not the best race planner/handicap plotters though are they ?

That’s the clearest sentence on that stable I could wish for.:applause::loyal:

 

[Spectre]

Not the best race planner/handicap plotters though are they ?

I’d usually agree, but for now Joe deserves the benefit of the doubt. To be fair they’ve just picked up a good slug of prize money, gained some race fitness, and possibly got a couple of pounds knocked off.

 

[Quevega]

I’d usually agree, but for now Joe deserves the benefit of the doubt. To be fair they’ve just picked up a good slug of prize money, gained some race fitness, and possibly got a couple of pounds knocked off.

He will run in handicaps because he's not a graded level horse.
I have no issue with this, or him running yesterday for the prize money.
But you only have to look at his last race vs fusil raffles to see that they aren't really being handicap clever.
They just prefer to run in graded races more often than not.
To be fair they have a good record in the Ladbrokes, but other than that they seem to opt for the graded races.
Not a stable I would look at for any Cheltenham festival handicap. And even when they look well handicapped they run them in the graded races anyway.
They will have their reasons, and it's up to them obviously.

 

[Our_Duke]

I personally love Chantry House for this. Has an ideal profile, looks like a stayer to me. Placed in a supreme which (and somebody much cleverer than me should take credit for pointing out) is never a bad thing. Think he's classy, an out and out stayer, and essentially a better Santini! He's one I anticipate topping up through the season. Agree with the above, don't see the King George as ideal, see him being outpaced and staying on. But for this race, am a big fan

 

[charlie]

I personally love Chantry House for this. Has an ideal profile, looks like a stayer to me. Placed in a supreme which (and somebody much cleverer than me should take credit for pointing out) is never a bad thing. Think he's classy, an out and out stayer, and essentially a better Santini! He's one I anticipate topping up through the season. Agree with the above, don't see the King George as ideal, see him being outpaced and staying on. But for this race, am a big fan

He's a horse that does absolutely nothing for me. Smacks as very good without ever being great. Might sound controversial given his CV, but he was victim of fortune at Cheltenham and Aintree and won two nothing races either side of that. Interesting the only firm who've pushed him out for this today are Unibet, who sponsor Henderson. I don't think he'll stay the trip and he'll end up getting battered in the Ryanair IMO. Physically, he is great to look at though. Remember being very taken by him at Cheltenham on trials day before Supreme.

 

[Our_Duke]

He's a horse that does absolutely nothing for me. Smacks as very good without ever being great. Might sound controversial given his CV, but he was victim of fortune at Cheltenham and Aintree and won two nothing races either side of that. Interesting the only firm who've pushed him out for this today are Unibet, who sponsor Henderson. I don't think he'll stay the trip and he'll end up getting battered in the Ryanair IMO. Physically, he is great to look at though. Remember being very taken by him at Cheltenham on trials day before Supreme.

I understand why he doesn't appeal to a lot of people. He is far from eye-catching in terms of the the way he wins. I do think he'd have won at Aintree (he doesn't have much in the way of acceleration so think he looked outpaced but would've got there but people have debated that to death I'm aware!). I do think he'll stay (indeed I think it's all he'll do, he gallops and nothing else for me). The Unibet price is interesting, not something I'd considered so will keep an eye on that. But everything else has been positive, it sounds like he's massively matured, the feedback has been that he's improved notably for the summer and I think the trip will be the making of him. If you don't think he'll improve for the trip, I completely get why you'd be against him though as you're banking on it bringing about improvement.

 

[Quevega]

He's a horse that does absolutely nothing for me. Smacks as very good without ever being great. Might sound controversial given his CV, but he was victim of fortune at Cheltenham and Aintree and won two nothing races either side of that. Interesting the only firm who've pushed him out for this today are Unibet, who sponsor Henderson. I don't think he'll stay the trip and he'll end up getting battered in the Ryanair IMO. Physically, he is great to look at though. Remember being very taken by him at Cheltenham on trials day before Supreme.

That's about as interesting as ......

And this guesswork about not being able to stay that you and some others mention.
What basis do you have for this ?

It just seems like something to say, when it makes more sense to just say you don't fancy it.
The pedigree points to him being able to stay well enough. Yeats has produced several stayers, including one or two of your personal favourites.

Obviously only one horse will stay the best in this years Gold Cup, so if every horse is judged against that ideal, and are therefore non stayers, then the odds are in the nay-sayers favour.
But a horse that has not tried the trip but has won over three miles by a distance twice, it just seems like a blurt.
How many second season chasers (by far the most successful category for winning the race) run in the Gold cup having raced over 3 miles 2f ? - Not many !

 

[Lobos]

Still has it to prove for me. Not convinced he would have won at Aintree at all. They still don't know if he truly stays in a proper race on a testing track. The King George will find him out if he's not good enough. I do think he'll end up in the Ryanair.

 

[Quevega]

I understand why he doesn't appeal to a lot of people. He is far from eye-catching in terms of the the way he wins. I do think he'd have won at Aintree (he doesn't have much in the way of acceleration so think he looked outpaced but would've got there but people have debated that to death I'm aware!). I do think he'll stay (indeed I think it's all he'll do, he gallops and nothing else for me). The Unibet price is interesting, not something I'd considered so will keep an eye on that. But everything else has been positive, it sounds like he's massively matured, the feedback has been that he's improved notably for the summer and I think the trip will be the making of him. If you don't think he'll improve for the trip, I completely get why you'd be against him though as you're banking on it bringing about improvement.

I had backed Espoir at Aintree, and was not a fan of Chantry House - But I thought he looked a big danger even though he was coming off the bridle.
If you take the mythical Envoi Allen fall out of the Marsh, the form of that race now looks better, by hook or by crook, and again (looking back) he won that race more comfortably than I first gave him credit, and he was off the bridle earlier than most that day but finished with ears pricked (whatever that means)

I'm not a massive fan of his but have backed him as he has the right credentials. So I do understand why people haven't backed him yet.

Don't worry about the Unibet price thing, They actually went 9-2 for a minute or 2 after he won Sunday then settled on 17/2 which was by far the biggest overreaction to a schooling session. So them going back to 10-1 is Nothing of note. Other than they are a tinpot outfit.

 

[Our_Duke]

Still has it to prove for me. Not convinced he would have won at Aintree at all. They still don't know if he truly stays in a proper race on a testing track. The King George will find him out if he's not good enough. I do think he'll end up in the Ryanair.

Tbh I think the King George isn't likely to prove much. Feels like plenty of horses (especially ones who lack a change of gear a la Chantry House imo) wouldn't excel there (I think he'll stay into a place). It just feels like everything against Chantry House is very much how he looks on the eye. For the Gold Cup, I want a horse with class (I think he has that, a horse that can place in a supreme and stay three miles suggests that to me) and can stay (obviously won't know til he tries, but he stays 3 miles and hardly screams a speed merchant to me).

 

[Lobos]

The biggest thing against Chantry going to the Gold Cup is..........Champ. Henderson and McCoy seem absolutely hell bent on making him a Gold Cup horse. They are desperate for him to get there in good shape and put in a performance. Its becoming embarrassing. For me, this will be the reason CH ends up in the Ryanair.

 

[Quevega]

Still has it to prove for me. Not convinced he would have won at Aintree at all. They still don't know if he truly stays in a proper race on a testing track. The King George will find him out if he's not good enough. I do think he'll end up in the Ryanair.

From a getting a run for my money perspective, the running him in the KIng George is a worry, as if they take a bad defeat there as proof he's a non stayer then he may indeed run in the Ryanair.
I'm not sure they are that narrow minded though as plenty of stayers have been beaten around Kempton over 3 miles, which is why the novice winner has never won the RSA. It takes a different type of horse in my opinion, although the real top draw ones can do well in both.
It'll probably depend on the manner of his defeat.
If he does run, I hope he runs respectfully, and doesn't lose rhythm and get well back.

Someone mentioned Lostintransalation in relation to chantry house, but although PU in the King George it's easy to forget he finished just 1 and half length behind Al Boum in the big one.

 

[Quevega]

The biggest thing against Chantry going to the Gold Cup is..........Champ. Henderson and McCoy seem absolutely hell bent on making him a Gold Cup horse. They are desperate for him to get there in good shape and put in a performance. Its becoming embarrassing. For me, this will be the reason CH ends up in the Ryanair.

In which race Do you think Champ will prove himself.
And they aren't daft.
Winners of the big graded races these days are usually 7 or 8, maybe 9 at a push in the QM and GC.

 

[Quevega]

Tbh I think the King George isn't likely to prove much. Feels like plenty of horses (especially ones who lack a change of gear a la Chantry House imo) wouldn't excel there (I think he'll stay into a place). It just feels like everything against Chantry House is very much how he looks on the eye. For the Gold Cup, I want a horse with class (I think he has that, a horse that can place in a supreme and stay three miles suggests that to me) and can stay (obviously won't know til he tries, but he stays 3 miles and hardly screams a speed merchant to me).

His running style, sort of off the bridle but still galloping and willing reminds me of some other Gold cup winners like Bob's Worth, Don Cossack. Not flashy but if he's there as they start coming up the hill, you'd fancy his chances.

 

[Our_Duke]

In which race Do you think Champ will prove himself.
And they aren't daft.
Winners of the big graded races these days are usually 7 or 8, maybe 9 at a push in the QM and GC.

That's my feeling, I mean, they have to try doing something with the horse (Champ) and what else is there? I wouldn't see it as negative - I dont think anyone thinks Champ lacks the talent to be a top horse so it's his connections' job to try. But ultimately, for a punting point of view, he is, for want of a better word, icky.

 

[Lobos]

In which race Do you think Champ will prove himself.
And they aren't daft.
Winners of the big graded races these days are usually 7 or 8, maybe 9 at a push in the QM and GC.

I have no idea Q. Possibly the Cotswold Chase on trials day ?

 

[Quevega]

Not one for going back to PtP form, as it's often meaningless.
But for people that do look back that far, Chantry House won 2/3 Points over 3 miles, staying on well on each occasion, his defeat was on debut against Monkfish when he quickened up to third last in the lead and UR.
I'd say that's Bullshit in terms of useful in a debate like this, but others do it all the time, so there you go.