• HELP US - Become a Patron - Fat Jockey is a horse racing community focused on all the big races in the UK and Ireland. We don't charge users but if you have found the site useful then any support towards the running costs is appreciated ... a small donation each month would be a huge contribution. Become a Patron!

General Chat

According to the Racing Post today the’new’ Turners is to become a limited Hcp so no mention of it being an ‘open’ hcp anymore. I think the intention is to limit the weight range to 20lbs.
 
Killiney said:
According to the Racing Post today the’new’ Turners is to become a limited Hcp so no mention of it being an ‘open’ hcp anymore. I think the intention is to limit the weight range to 20lbs.
Click to expand...

Jesus. This is being very badly handled.

Jockey Club is also reporting limited status and that it will be a Grade 2. The Jockey Club state that the race is being moved from Sandown on Imperial Cup day. So it will have similar conditions to this race ... which doesn't appear to be a 0-145 handicap, unless I am missing something. I can't see anything in the entry requirements.

https://www.racingpost.com/results/54/sandown/2024-03-09/860250

The Jockey Club then confirm that it is "similar to the race which was previously at the festival until 2020".

So is it 0-145 or not?
 
Benjy23 said:
That's the intention isn't it. Make every race a better spectacle for the average Joe. I'd say it's every chance of working as well. Arkle and BANC both be more stacked now you'd think. As well as the two novice handicaps stacked with plots...

​​​​​​Antepost fans, who are generally the core racing fans, aren't really the consideration.
Click to expand...

There's only one group at the forefront of this and that's the bookmakers! 3 more competitive races to line their pockets during the busiest week of the year as opposed to the want of purists hoping to see the best horses competing at their best trips. The NH Chase is a joke now. Assuming prize money doesn't change then even more trainers will just target the Irish National instead in 2 1/2 weeks time. Last year was 270k Euros to the winner as opposed to £61k for the NH Chase. Novices have a great record in the IN which was won this year by a 140 rated novice. You also have the Kim Muir at Cheltenham over 3m 2f where novices also have a great record. Yes, less prize money (£36k to the winner last season) but more than half the field turn out to be exposed horses only there for a day out for the owners.

Having ruined the Cross Country as well then they would have been better turning the race into a 4m open chase, giving a marathon trip option for the likes of those short of grade 1 class without having to concede masses of weight in the XC now.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Zachx02
Cant be too many more nails to bang into the lid of the coffin of ante post racing!
 
Runragged said:
There's only one group at the forefront of this and that's the bookmakers! 3 more competitive races to line their pockets during the busiest week of the year as opposed to the want of purists hoping to see the best horses competing at their best trips. The NH Chase is a joke now. Assuming prize money doesn't change then even more trainers will just target the Irish National instead in 2 1/2 weeks time. Last year was 270k Euros to the winner as opposed to £61k for the NH Chase. Novices have a great record in the IN which was won this year by a 140 rated novice. You also have the Kim Muir at Cheltenham over 3m 2f where novices also have a great record. Yes, less prize money (£36k to the winner last season) but more than half the field turn out to be exposed horses only there for a day out for the owners.

Having ruined the Cross Country as well then they would have been better turning the race into a 4m open chase, giving a marathon trip option for the likes of those short of grade 1 class without having to concede masses of weight in the XC now.
Click to expand...

It's worth remembering that this is a UK based festival that has suffered at the hands of the dominant Irish raiders. I love them all, but there is no doubt that these changes are a much needed help to the UK trainers and connections. To give them a better chance of Festival glory that helps any yard going forward.
The Irish National is of no real consequence to the UK trainers, few have any interest going up against half a dozen Mullins horses and the Elliot battalion anyway.

The issue might be that the UK horse population has got so sparse that they still struggle to fill the races in the short term anyhow.
But the hope is that over time the UK yards can get horses into these new/refreshed races and be competitive.
 
Still on subject of NHC the drop in trip was reportedly in part a response to the calamitous race when a number of amateurs were hauled before the stewards for not no pulling up their horses when they had no chance. I think one of the horses died. The changes to standards for the amateurs also occurred as a result. Runragged is in my opinion correct on saying the 4 mile trip would make the race more distinct from the other handicaps at the meeting. The change to allowing professionals would then make more sense.

I see the amateurs are up in arms as they say they were not consulted - that seems like an own goal.
 
Exar Essay said:
Jesus. This is being very badly handled.

Jockey Club is also reporting limited status and that it will be a Grade 2. The Jockey Club state that the race is being moved from Sandown on Imperial Cup day. So it will have similar conditions to this race ... which doesn't appear to be a 0-145 handicap, unless I am missing something. I can't see anything in the entry requirements.

https://www.racingpost.com/results/54/sandown/2024-03-09/860250

The Jockey Club then confirm that it is "similar to the race which was previously at the festival until 2020".

So is it 0-145 or not?
Click to expand...

It's not been very well communicated to say the least! The Racing Post originally reported an open handicap and now it is being touted as a limited handicap (whatever the criteria are for that). What is clear is that it will be for novices only and they must have run in at least 4 steeplechases prior. I'm sure we'll be having a discussion closer to the time about the eligibility of a horse that's had 4 chase starts but fallen lor pulled up someway through one of those races. Clear and concise communication is key.
 
Do you still need 4 chase runs to run in the novice hcap or is that just for novices running in non hcaps? I assumed the normal 3 runs would apply here and 4 for the non novice hcaps?
 
I can't get my head around those that think turning the XC into a Handicap is a bad idea.
Except for the selfish insular angle of the antepost punter of course :highly_amused:

How can it be right to see 2 horses rated 160+ beating horses rated around the 140 mark by 20+ lengths every year, and although we;ve had some decent match races over the years. That was probably only the Gigginstown/Elliot yard milking prize money and cleverly keeping the race at least competitive at the very top of the market.

Had they opted to run just one horse most years then we'd have had more years with odds on shots winning. They probably knew they had to make it interesting to keep the gravy train on track.

And moaning like O'Leary the other day saying Tiger Roll would never have won a National is fucking nonsense.

These types can still run in the race as a prep for the national or to get their appetite for racing back, but they won't have a stone in hand on the other poor horses from next year.
Fucking lording it in the parade ring every year like they've climbed Everest with their balls out.

The weight is no issue as they normally carried 11st 7 when it was a conditions race anyhow and conceding weight to inferior horses has always been fair game.

And the getting his appetite back for racing by getting the "winning feeling" is fucking shite also, as it didn't stop them running down the field in graded races to get his mark down.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Craigy14, Bonjers and Faugheen_Machine
Kautostar said:
Do you still need 4 chase runs to run in the novice hcap or is that just for novices running in non hcaps? I assumed the normal 3 runs would apply here and 4 for the non novice hcaps?
Click to expand...

I wondered this, but haven't seen anything confirming one way or the other.
 
Quevega said:
I wondered this, but haven't seen anything confirming one way or the other.
Click to expand...

To be fair, the jockey club have been relatively clear on this. The increased number of runs will only apply to non-novice handicaps. So the NHC (and Turners) should be 3 prior runs only.
 
Exar Essay said:
To be fair, the jockey club have been relatively clear on this. The increased number of runs will only apply to non-novice handicaps. So the NHC (and Turners) should be 3 prior runs only.
Click to expand...

:encouragement: must have missed that part.
 
Quevega said:
I can't get my head around those that think turning the XC into a Handicap is a bad idea.
Click to expand...

I agree with this.

This is the one race I think did need a change, and they done the correct thing making it a handicap.
 
Quevega said:
It's worth remembering that this is a UK based festival that has suffered at the hands of the dominant Irish raiders. I love them all, but there is no doubt that these changes are a much needed help to the UK trainers and connections. To give them a better chance of Festival glory that helps any yard going forward.
The Irish National is of no real consequence to the UK trainers, few have any interest going up against half a dozen Mullins horses and the Elliot battalion anyway.

The issue might be that the UK horse population has got so sparse that they still struggle to fill the races in the short term anyhow.
But the hope is that over time the UK yards can get horses into these new/refreshed races and be competitive.
Click to expand...

Maybe, though it's a shame we have to decrease the quality of the racing for that to happen rather than look at other ways of improving the standard of UK racing.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Eudipe
Runragged said:
Maybe, though it's a shame we have to decrease the quality of the racing for that to happen rather than look at other ways of improving the standard of UK racing.
Click to expand...

I understand that element but the meeting has to be designed to suit the population of horses. And to offer competitive racing for the audience.

The graded chases in the festival and throughout the season are so often suffering from small field sizes and uncompetitive races and the graded novice races are often the worse affected.
So they simply have to reduce the opportunities for these top stables and horses to dodge each other and mop up easy money, otherwise it's self perpetuating.
It's ok for some (the elite minority) but the rest and more importantly the Sporting spectacle suffers.

If all races consisted of odds on shots and horses winning easily all the time then it wouldn't take long for the game to die.
It's why handicaps exist and what the Sport's foundations are built upon.

To add to this, I'd argue that the old Novices handicap was much more of a spectacle and betting proposition than most recent Turners renewals.
I think this forum is biased because of it's very nature really, as a four runner novice race when you have an interest in one or more of the runners at bigger odds is obviously going to carry more interest than it would for the punters who turn up to bet Cheltenham week.

But it's these punters that are the majority, we are just a small grain of sand on the internet talking bollocks about this meeting all fucking year.
 
Last edited:
Quevega said:
I can't get my head around those that think turning the XC into a Handicap is a bad idea.
Except for the selfish insular angle of the antepost punter of course :highly_amused:
Click to expand...

Because in November and December there is already a Cross Country Handicap Chase over a very similar trip. The XC at the Festival was the only one in this country which wasn't a handicap. Therefore it gave a chance for the top XC horses to compete and see who is the best. By making it another handicap takes that away from what should be a Championship Festival. Carrying 11st 10lb against horses carrying 10st is a different assignment to everyone carrying 11st 7lb.

Yes, the race has become a bit of a farce in recent years with regards competitiveness but why should we deny the horses and trainer the chance to show what their horse can do best in this sphere on the biggest stage?
 
Runragged said:
Because in November and December there is already a Cross Country Handicap Chase over a very similar trip. The XC at the Festival was the only one in this country which wasn't a handicap. Therefore it gave a chance for the top XC horses to compete and see who is the best. By making it another handicap takes that away from what should be a Championship Festival. Carrying 11st 10lb against horses carrying 10st is a different assignment to everyone carrying 11st 7lb.

Yes, the race has become a bit of a farce in recent years with regards competitiveness but why should we deny the horses and trainer the chance to show what their horse can do best in this sphere on the biggest stage?
Click to expand...

I am quite interested in the XC now it's back to a handicap. It's a whole new batch of form lines to look at and it brings in the potential French army of excellent XC chasers into the mix. From a betting point of view it's a kick in the dick because it was a pretty easy race to bag 1st 2nd and 3rd pretty early on at decent(ish) prices but i really think the new change to the race could see big priced plunges on the days leading up and the day itself. It's a sit back and put your feet up job now until late Feb.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Saxon Warrior
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom