I'd agree with that 100% nobody doubts he'll be out in a bumper, hes already had 2 entries, but you'd have to have every doubt whether he goes to chelt. He's 1 for the future, whether he's one for the champion bumper this year time will tell.
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Cheltenham Bumper 2019
- Thread starter The Beast
- Start date
I'd agree with that 100% nobody doubts he'll be out in a bumper, hes already had 2 entries, but you'd have to have every doubt whether he goes to chelt. He's 1 for the future, whether he's one for the champion bumper this year time will tell.
charlie
Fat Jockey Patron (est. March 2021)
ComplyOrDie
Fat Jockey Patron (est. Jan 2021) & Moderator
Probably a fair point Kev, as if he comes out and wins well I can cash out. Was hoping not to keep adding bumper horses as it's not a race I'm too keen on myself. Currently sitting with Mt. Leinster @ 40's, Energumene @ 50's & Malone Road @ 25's. Obviously having Envoi Allen in at 33's would not be the end of the world and I feel I'm being convinced even though I'm adament he doesn't turn up!
I'm not sure you can be adament about it. Malone Road suffers a setback?
Get him backed, #GambleResponsibly
ComplyOrDie
Fat Jockey Patron (est. Jan 2021) & Moderator
Catch 22 for me. I am in my head already convinced 100% he won't turn up for it, like I said though, the cash out is an option I have played with and done well with this time around so the lower risk of being to get out of a bet helps in covering my backside if I am somehow wrong
Catch 22 for me. I am in my head already convinced 100% he won't turn up for it, like I said though, the cash out is an option I have played with and done well with this time around so the lower risk of being to get out of a bet helps in covering my backside if I am somehow wrong
Explain to me how you can be 100% certain Envoi Allen will not run at this years Cheltenham Festival?
ComplyOrDie
Fat Jockey Patron (est. Jan 2021) & Moderator
As I said, it's only in my head. But the way I see it is if Elliott likes the horse that much he'll take the same path as Samcro give or take the 'easy' bumpers he goes for initially. He'll be held back for novice hurdling as the same owners have a very good one already in Malone Road. Everywhere I have seen people say how much Gordon likes this horse, you rarely get the best horses for the future running in a race like the Champion Bumper IMHO. It goes back to the record of bumper winners in novice hurdles, yeah there are a couple who go on to reach the top but the real reality is the majority who run in the bumper become good hurdlers or chasers but not the very best.
Until Jamie Codd says he likes him most of it is irrelevant anyway :highly_amused:
charlie
Fat Jockey Patron (est. March 2021)
On 18 October 2018 Gordon said in a stable tour re Envoi Allen 'He looked very nice when winning his point-to-point. We haven’t run him yet, but he shows all the right signs at home. He is a classy type of horse and we’d look forward to starting him off in a bumper'. That fills me with encouragement that he may head here. I then found something else which frustratingly tips me into the ComplyOrDie camp on this one. After Samcro won the Future Champions Flat Race in December 2016 Gordon said 'he'll be going to the winners bumper in Fairyhouse and that will be him for the year'. He was then asked about whether or not Samcro would have an entry in the bumper and Gordon seemed disgusted at the suggestion of that ever happening - it's clearly a race he doesn't really care about - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfrU9ab9T8Y.
jack1092
Member
I'm with COD here in that i don't see them sending two to this. However, probably not for the same reasons- Malone Road has has clearly a very good turn of foot already + as i said earlier in this, he's probably not a Samcro in build right now so why not? I don't think it's got anything to do with not taking his classiest sorts here, i make it that the majority of Elliot's horses are out and out chasers in the making that probably wouldn't enjoy the Bumper, whereas i think this guy has already shown enough ability to take a chance.
Envoi Allen will be very interesting to watch as i think he'd need to be a seriously good horse to be better than MR. It might just be that Elliot is thinking how exciting Evoi Allen is as a prospect down the line. Not saying MR isn't either, but he could win on the flat with the speed he's showing!
Envoi Allen will be very interesting to watch as i think he'd need to be a seriously good horse to be better than MR. It might just be that Elliot is thinking how exciting Evoi Allen is as a prospect down the line. Not saying MR isn't either, but he could win on the flat with the speed he's showing!
BigChaang
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I don't particularly like the Bumper ,Have no bet's , like the Doc , pick something out the week before the race.
Any way, I posted on sunday. https://jumpsmanracing.wordpress.com
Chevely park stud recruits . Envoi Allen - all you need to know.
P.s they mention Faugheen and samcro in the article.
Any way, I posted on sunday. https://jumpsmanracing.wordpress.com
Chevely park stud recruits . Envoi Allen - all you need to know.
P.s they mention Faugheen and samcro in the article.
jono
Fat Jockey Patron (est. Jan 2021)
Noticed a horse called Osmotic has his debut for Elliott tomorrow in the bumper at Thurles. Half brother to Faugheen
jono
Fat Jockey Patron (est. Jan 2021)
On Malone Road and Envoi Allen...
I would love to have Malone Road onside - impossible not to be blown away by that run but i'm certainly not rushing or worrying about getting a price on him now. I have the same view as BigChaang in regards to this race so i'm pretty reluctant to back any horse - i have an awful record in not only this race but also generally spotting which horses will continue their progression / potential and excel over obstacles and which won't (bar the obvious likes of Samcro, Faugheen etc). This season I had intended to leave the race well alone infact.
For me (and anyone that hasn't backed him) - I actually think it's a very good thing he won't be out again until the festival. It was such a good run that he'll never be forgotten by any means, particularly with his price tag and connections but recency bias is very much a thing and there will be plenty of other high profile horses out over the next 3-4 months. I can't help but think they'll be far better bumper horses than Mt Leinster for the Mullins yard in particular. I 100% expect to see a few other runners add themselves into the mix with some around the same price at MR is now. It won't be by much but at best price 5/1 now, it would not surprise me at all if you were to get a point or 2 bigger later on in the season. The Dublin Racing festival in particular is almost guaranteed to throw up a high quality race (as it did last year) where all the best bumper performers at that stage (bar Malone Road) may well run.
I do think it's a no brainer to back Envoi Allen with bet365 now though. If it wasn't for the cash out then I'd hold off completely as I do agree the likelihood of him running as well in this race is slim but there's nothing to lose bar tying up a couple of points (exc. the fact they could stop cashout at any point) and there's plenty of evidence to suggest at the start of this season it was Envoi Allen who was held in the higher regard
Currently backed (despite not wanting too!)
Energumene 1pt 50/1
Envoi Allen 1pt 33/1
(will do at some stage Malone Road)
I would love to have Malone Road onside - impossible not to be blown away by that run but i'm certainly not rushing or worrying about getting a price on him now. I have the same view as BigChaang in regards to this race so i'm pretty reluctant to back any horse - i have an awful record in not only this race but also generally spotting which horses will continue their progression / potential and excel over obstacles and which won't (bar the obvious likes of Samcro, Faugheen etc). This season I had intended to leave the race well alone infact.
For me (and anyone that hasn't backed him) - I actually think it's a very good thing he won't be out again until the festival. It was such a good run that he'll never be forgotten by any means, particularly with his price tag and connections but recency bias is very much a thing and there will be plenty of other high profile horses out over the next 3-4 months. I can't help but think they'll be far better bumper horses than Mt Leinster for the Mullins yard in particular. I 100% expect to see a few other runners add themselves into the mix with some around the same price at MR is now. It won't be by much but at best price 5/1 now, it would not surprise me at all if you were to get a point or 2 bigger later on in the season. The Dublin Racing festival in particular is almost guaranteed to throw up a high quality race (as it did last year) where all the best bumper performers at that stage (bar Malone Road) may well run.
I do think it's a no brainer to back Envoi Allen with bet365 now though. If it wasn't for the cash out then I'd hold off completely as I do agree the likelihood of him running as well in this race is slim but there's nothing to lose bar tying up a couple of points (exc. the fact they could stop cashout at any point) and there's plenty of evidence to suggest at the start of this season it was Envoi Allen who was held in the higher regard
Currently backed (despite not wanting too!)
Energumene 1pt 50/1
Envoi Allen 1pt 33/1
(will do at some stage Malone Road)
BigChaang
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Faugheen_Machine
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Does anyone know how much he was sold to Gigginstown for? I met the breeder a few years ago and he was a great bloke. Faugheen was sold for virtually nothing so I'd like to think he made a bit more off this one.
Hurricane fly
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jonthehammer
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Faugheen_Machine
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jono
Fat Jockey Patron (est. Jan 2021)
Thinking a little more about Envoi Allen i’m not sure it’s that inconceivable that he may not run in the bumper either…
Unlike Gigginstown and Elliott - where we have years of evidence to show neither are fans of this race and neither send many if any of their horses for it, It’s an unknown on these owners on how they view this race and something we won’t know until this season is up and maybe a few more years in from now. But as stated previously we know the owners have ran their horses against each other over the flat which leads you to think they may well have the same stance here.
Elliott has come out pretty effusively straight after that his next run will be the bumper in March. He didn't need to be pressed for it nor was their a sense of indecisiveness there. Now maybe the owners have decided to commit to one horse (that being Malone Road) for this race already and the rest stay away but it seemed unlike the Elliott of old. Regardless of who else Elliott has in the yard, even if they are deemed better than Malone Road - he is a proper horse on what we’ve seen so far and has huge potential over the next few years.
If his view is to not want to run his best horses here, I just can't believe from what we've seen Malone Road is considered one to 'throw in the bumper' and not worry if it hinders in long term potential. For all other horses in the yard may be working all over MR, it's what they do on the track that counts.
I also think there could be a degree of keeping the owners on side as well so they may have a strong say in the decision even if Elliott isn't a fan. Bare in mind a huge part of Gordan's success is currently down to Gigginstown. Mullins was able to do so unbelievably without a hiccup but just say he were to lose them (not something I think will happen for a fair while but..) it would be a gigantic blow. I have no doubt he would recover, he's too good a trainer not to but it would be some almighty setback. Getting new owners into the yard like Cheveley Park Stud is huge for him in the longterm. So again they may make the call here...
Unlike Gigginstown and Elliott - where we have years of evidence to show neither are fans of this race and neither send many if any of their horses for it, It’s an unknown on these owners on how they view this race and something we won’t know until this season is up and maybe a few more years in from now. But as stated previously we know the owners have ran their horses against each other over the flat which leads you to think they may well have the same stance here.
Elliott has come out pretty effusively straight after that his next run will be the bumper in March. He didn't need to be pressed for it nor was their a sense of indecisiveness there. Now maybe the owners have decided to commit to one horse (that being Malone Road) for this race already and the rest stay away but it seemed unlike the Elliott of old. Regardless of who else Elliott has in the yard, even if they are deemed better than Malone Road - he is a proper horse on what we’ve seen so far and has huge potential over the next few years.
If his view is to not want to run his best horses here, I just can't believe from what we've seen Malone Road is considered one to 'throw in the bumper' and not worry if it hinders in long term potential. For all other horses in the yard may be working all over MR, it's what they do on the track that counts.
I also think there could be a degree of keeping the owners on side as well so they may have a strong say in the decision even if Elliott isn't a fan. Bare in mind a huge part of Gordan's success is currently down to Gigginstown. Mullins was able to do so unbelievably without a hiccup but just say he were to lose them (not something I think will happen for a fair while but..) it would be a gigantic blow. I have no doubt he would recover, he's too good a trainer not to but it would be some almighty setback. Getting new owners into the yard like Cheveley Park Stud is huge for him in the longterm. So again they may make the call here...
Quevega
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Isn't it the O'Leary's that mainly drove the negative narrative about the bumper at cheltenham.
And it's definitely mainly bullshit that it ruins horses.
You could probably only say this for the lightly raced sensitive types, who freak out in a big field going faster than they've ever gone. That's up to the trainers judgement.
On the subject of Gordon, I'm sure the biggest driving factor for him these days, now established as a leading trainer, is to be champion and also Champion trainer at cheltenham.
If he thinks he's got two horses capable of winning the bumper, then I'm sure he#ll run them if he feels they're up to it.