Champion Hurdle 2020

[UnTempsPourTout]

You have two great Mares whose best trip is 2m4f and there is a 2m4f Mares race. Perfect. We have a mouthwatering clash, and the first I can remember in this race.

Think thats a bit harsh, the mares which apples jade won, in between the two ricci mares vroom vroom mag and limini is one of my favourite races of the past 6/7 years at the festival. But i agree with the point the clashes are few and far between.

 

[Super Raven]

You could argue BDD's best piece of form is over 3 miles though, and has not been tested over 2 mile.
And also that Honeysuckle's best piece of form and her biggest victory was over 2 mile's on good to yielding ground.

In fact I'd say there's no real argument.
So it's you and many others that say 2m 4f is there optimum trip.

and directly from HDB on honeysuckle as the main reason why she stays in the mares hurdle. He also said her most impressive performance was over 2m4 where she got her highest rating.

BDD, yes i could see stepping up to 3m no problem but WM obviously prefers her at 2m4.

 

[Deleted member 4957]

If only there was a 3 mile hurdle she could run in ...

Or an Aintree festival with a prestigious Intermediate Hurdle

There may well come a day when there are G1 Mares only 2m, 2m 4f and 3m hurdles...

 

[Quevega]

and directly from HDB on honeysuckle as the main reason why she stays in the mares hurdle. He also said her most impressive performance was over 2m4 where she got her highest rating.

BDD, yes i could see stepping up to 3m no problem but WM obviously prefers her at 2m4.

Trainers are very often wrong. And full of excuses.
They are brilliant with horses don't get me wrong but make mistakes as much as us punters. Some even more so.

A prime example of the trip conundrum is Altior - Compare some of the stuff Henderson says now to what he was saying at start of this season, and the little posh kid who rides him (definitely guilty of excusing bad rides due to the horse needing further)

They change their tune.

Edit - I'm not saying the many others are wrong, just that they're not definitely right either.

 

[Deleted member 4957]

You could argue BDD's best piece of form is over 3 miles though, and has not been tested over 2 mile.

Unless you're Henry de Bromhead who thought Sizing John was a 2 miler for three years before Jessie won a Gold Cup with him you have to assume that trainers know and understand their horses.
Mullins (we assume) thinks the G1 2m 4f race suits Benie better than the Champion and Stayers hurdle...

 

[Super Raven]

Trainers are very often wrong. And full of excuses.
They are brilliant with horses don't get me wrong but make mistakes as much as us punters. Some even more so.

A prime example of the trip conundrum is Altior - Compare some of the stuff Henderson says now to what he was saying at start of this season, and the little posh kid who rides him (definitely guilty of excusing bad rides due to the horse needing further)

They change their tune.

yeah i can agree with that. :highly_amused:

Although i think the Altior one is slightly different as he had nothing left to prove over 2m so was worth trying over further, which we now know was the wrong move.

 

[Quevega]

Unless you're Henry de Bromhead who thought Sizing John was a 2 miler for three years before Jessie won a Gold Cup with him you have to assume that trainers know and understand their horses.
Mullins (we assume) thinks the G1 2m 4f race suits Benie better than the Champion and Stayers hurdle...

Yep,
Back in the Quevega v Big Bucks zone with BDD I reckon.
Stayers would be a serious consideration without PP.

 

[Quevega]

yeah i can agree with that. :highly_amused:

Although i think the Altior one is slightly different as he had nothing left to prove over 2m so was worth trying over further, which we now know was the wrong move.

BDD has won the Mares already and would have won another easily last year.
Winning another won't prove anything more than she's already done.
And unless we see her challenged more, people will always rank Annie Power a bit higher (most people anyway)

But agree to a certain extent with Honeysuckle on this point.

 

[Super Raven]

BDD has won the Mares already and would have won another easily last year.
Winning another won't prove anything more than she's already done.
And unless we see her challenged more, people will always rank Annie Power a bit higher (most people anyway)

But agree to a certain extent with Honeysuckle on this point.

Yeah that point was on Honeysuckle. On BDD, i agree and think WM could be more adventurous and go for the stayers but i think he sees the mares as the perfect race for her.

 

[Quevega]

Yeah that point was on Honeysuckle. On BDD, i agree and think WM could be more adventurous and go for the stayers but i think he sees the mares as the perfect race for her.

I think they may run her in the Punchestown 3 miler, and as far as I know Paisley Parks heading there as well. Not like Big Bucks :concern:

 

[Super Raven]

I think they may run her in the Punchestown 3 miler, and as far as I know Paisley Parks heading there as well. Not like Big Bucks :concern:

Hope they do.. Anyway with the news of Honeysuckle today and BDD unlikely to show up here, what price do we think Epatante will go off at as favourite? 15/8 maybe?

 

[Quevega]

Hope they do.. Anyway with the news of Honeysuckle today and BDD unlikely to show up here, what price do we think Epatante will go off at as favourite? 15/8 maybe?

Think she will be heavily backed on the day.
I'm waiting for decs then going to back her again I think.

 

[Super Raven]

Think she will be heavily backed on the day.
I'm waiting for decs then going to back her again I think.

yeah think she will go off short now, especially with Henderson's comments on the coughing seems to be over.

 

[jack1092]

Darver Star seems to be being mentioned a fair bit more now for this, think he will finish in the money.

I still think Cilaos Emery has a decent chance here even if it's all gone reasonably quiet on him.

Agree with you guys though, i think Epatante will shorten up a fair bit. Pentland hills is sitting at 5/1 for heavens sake. She must be a 2s shot therefore?

 

[Kevloaf]

I’m not questioning if they should go for 2m or not but if they don’t see 2m as their best chance of winning why would the owners send them to the ch?

I get the BDD stayers option as I think she would have a massive chance even with pp in there, she’d be getting 7lbs. But as we have mentioned a few times willie will take the easier option so we don’t get to see those clashes unfortunately.

The only one I’ve backed is BDD in the mares nothing else for either of the 2 in the 3 options. That doesn’t mean I don’t think she’d make the stayers a better race or that she shouldn’t go for it. I just don’t think she would win the champion hurdle over 2m.

Edit - yes the 2 mares would make the champion hurdle a better race but as my first post about this the owners maybe don’t feel it’s their best chance of winning. The poor champion hurdle renewal shouldn’t mean every other horse should divert as its winnable as it might not suit their horse. I think honey would have a chance but owners have decided against it, equally I think BDD would have a great chance stayers and time will tell what they choose for her.

You've missed my point.

I'm not blaming the owners for going for the race.

I am saying the race shouldn't excist as a G1 to give them that option

 

[Garrison Savannah]

Think thats a bit harsh, the mares which apples jade won, in between the two ricci mares vroom vroom mag and limini is one of my favourite races of the past 6/7 years at the festival. But i agree with the point the clashes are few and far between.

Agreed - really showed her battling qualities that day - and just happened to be my first Cheltenham festival winner l saw live at the track. :encouragement:

 

[Kevloaf]

Whats the point of the Festival?! Bit of a leap there Kev surely?!

You have two great Mares whose best trip is 2m4f and there is a 2m4f Mares race. Perfect. We have a mouthwatering clash, and the first I can remember in this race.

I don't think this discussion would even be happening if Buveur Dair and Saldier, Klassical Dream etc were fit. The problem this year is the 2m Champion Hurdle division is weak. That's happened before and will happen again. But suggesting Mares should switch from their normal targets because of that doesn't really seem the right answer to me.

How do you know there best trip is 2m4f?
Benie Des Dieux's best form is 3m isn't it?

If Honeysuckle went CH, and Benie went Stayers - would you be gutted?

Seeing Benie Clash with Paisley Park?!
NOW THAT IS A CLASH.



I genuinly don't care who is the best Mare at 2m4f. I don't see how anyone can really?

When we find out which of them is best, what happens then? we just roll over and say "well done, no point you ever testing yourself at 2m or 3m, or against the boys"



Also, if Benie and Honeysuckle didn't run, is Roskana (last years winner) versus Stormy Ireland not a decent clash? That's surely what the point of the Mares programme is, so we get clashes for horses that aren't CHAMPIONSHIP horses to have somewhere to run.



Benie versus Honeysuckle is BETTER than BDD having a walkover, absolutely..... my point is they shouldn't have that choice. I'm not arguing about the decision that's been made, I'm arguing they shouldn't be able to make it!

You can havem this "clash" at anywhere else, after Cheltenham.... but nobody would build it up as much really!

 

[Craigy14]

You've missed my point.

I'm not blaming the owners for going for the race.

I am saying the race shouldn't excist as a G1 to give them that option

Apologies, yes I agree that if it was a grade 2 then the penalties for them being grade 1 winners may force them to go for the more prestigious races.

Whether that’s shorter at 2m or further at 3m.

 

[Deleted member 4957]

Apologies, yes I agree that if it was a grade 2 then the penalties for them being grade 1 winners may force them to go for the more prestigious races.

Whether that’s shorter at 2m or further at 3m.

As I said earlier, Quevega won 6 of them all at G2.
Make it a 0-145 handicap...

 

[Hurricane fly]

BDD vs Honeysuckle is two of the top 2 hurdlers at the festival facing off against each other.

Whether it’s in the Mares, in the CH or in the stayers it is a great challenge. If this clash was the Aintree hurdle people would be slobbering over it.