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2019 Grand National

So we've had the second forfeit stage published. BDM still in, but if Aintree is the target, he could still go for the Bowl - IMO probably the better choice, with Anibale Fly at a big weights advantage.

BDM's possible participation remains a significant variable for GN weights and ratings, but time and tide wait for no man. So, with essentially all preps run, below are my model's top-rated 2019 GN entries, after running the slide rule over all those down to OR143 - it's unlikely the cut will come below that.

They're ranked below in order of strength of rating, but all those listed have ratings in the range inhabited by the 20 highest-rated of the 22 GN winners and near-missers (<5L) since 2005, as back-tested by my previous model. FYI, the 2 lowest-rated former winners/near-missers (both in the same race, which had only 2 runners with "winning" ratings, both of which ran well but encountered misfortune) were one notch below this range, normally considered as having "Strong Place Potential".

An important point about a model is that it is, of course, totally objective. As much as we'd like it to whittle the field down to just 4, all at tasty e/w odds, and rule out those at the head of the market, it simply tells it as it sees it - as it must if it's to be of any value over time.

As will be seen, unfortunately, this year it’s largely (though not totally) seeing things as the market is.

In the past it’s identified between 3 and 6 horses with winning profiles on the specific ground. Last year, on Heavy, it identified 7 and these turned out to include 1st, 3rd and 5th home.

However, with that many on the shortlist, sadly, instinct had to come into play, and I gave the winner the swerve and cashed out where possible on 3rd placed Bless The Wings.

The model had done a decent job but I failed to back the correct perm from its shortlist. That said, as noted, Pleasant Company was the first statistical outlier in the model to near-miss in 12 years and prompted my return to the drawing board and construction of Mark II.

I'd hoped the new model might deliver a shortlist this year that could be backed in its entirety, without the need for my picking and choosing, but that’s unlikely, especially if BDM runs. Indeed, from OR and my model's perspectives, it's shaping up to be one of the highest quality and most competitive GNs for years:

  • BDM would be the highest (uncompressed) Officially Rated GN runner (172) since Master Oats in 1997.
  • Even with 4lbs OR compression for the race, his presence would keep the absolute weights at levels that elevate the stat-ratings of several from "strong place potential" to "winning" calibre, depending on the going.
  • The model's two highest-rated runners would have “top-quartile” ratings (i.e. in the top 25% of the ratings-range of former winners and near-missers since 2005).


That said, in 2012, the old model rated a runner with the strongest GN stat-profile of any runner since 1988. Desperately sadly, that runner (Synchronised) never came home.

While the model wasn't necessarily wrong, nor is it a crystal ball. All it does is hopefully improve returns and the bottom line over time, and despite the occasional mis-translation when putting fancies on the betting slip, it's worked well down the years.

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So, to business.

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With two key “known unknowns”, the ratings are in the context of four alternative scenarios. Despite having two stand-out candidates, given the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune in a typical GN, but also given the number of winning calibre runners identified by the model, the winner should be one of, but could be any of, those in the relevant list. But, if it were to prove perfectly accurate, either a 45 or a 79-year old trend would be broken on 6 April. If not, maybe we'll have to settle for breaking a 68-year old one – for the Ladies!).

Odds are current best price for NRNB 5 places (1/4 or 1/5 odds) - some of these may not line up of course:

A. BDM scratched / GS or better:

#1 Ramses De Teillee (33/1), Tiger Roll (9/2)

#3 General Principle (33/1), Anibale Fly (12/1), Abolitionist (33/1), Vintage Clouds (14/1)


B. BDM scratched / Softer than GS:

#1 Ramses De Teillee, Tiger Roll

#3 General Principle, Ms Parfois (25/1), Anibale Fly

#6 Abolitionist, Rathvinden (12/1), Pleasant Company (33/1), Folsom Blue (40/1)


C. BDM runs / GS or better:

#1 Ramses De Teillee, Tiger Roll

#3 Anibale Fly

#4 General Principle, Abolitionist, Vintage Clouds, Rathvinden, Pleasant Company


D. BDM runs / Softer than GS:

#1 Ramses De Teillee, Tiger Roll

#3 Anibale Fly

#4 General Principle, Ms Parfois, Pleasant Company, Rathvinden

#8 Abolitionist, Folsom Blue


A notch below the aforementioned horses in the ratings are those who could run a huge race (depending on weight and underhoof conditions), but are considered Place Potential at best: Yala Enki (if softer than GS, 66/1), Mall Dini (25/1), Walk In The Mill (33/1).


How does this, therefore, translate to the betting slip? (TBC)

Padsthefish historically how have you done with this model
In previous grand nationals mate?
 
Came on here for a quick read before selecting a few antepost pokes and blooming glad I did, what a read that is pads! Would Ms Parfois having run so recently put you off her?
 
I wish I knew Billy! His damsire Broken Hearted was the sire of Numbersixvlverde but the thing with N6VV was that he stayed because of the masses of stamina influences on his own damside. He had a triple winning Grand National stallion VUlGAN in his pedigree. The other significant horse that had Broken Hearted as the damsire was/is old slowboat and Welsh National winner Emperors Choice but again he had a GN winning stallion and Eider Chase winning stallion BUCKSKIN in him plus Random Shot who was in my namesake's pedigree Seven Towers.

The pedigree of Jury Duty doesn't scream Grand National winner to me but neither did Ballabriggs'. Quite interesting that the last three winners have been by 120+ rated top class Flat performers. The shape of things to come possibly.

Welcome to the forum.

Interesting angles.

Which other horses do scream national winner on pedigree (aside from the ones you've highlighted).

It's so rarely a tool I use to narrow a field.
 
Padsthefish historically how have you done with this model
In previous grand nationals mate?

This is the first spin of the current one - modifications made post-2012 necessitated a revamp - but the prior incarnation was as follows:

2006: winner (Numbersixvalverde) & 4th (Nil Desperandum)
2007: 2nd (0.75L) (McKelvey)
2008: winner (Comply Or Die), 2nd (King Johns Castle) & 4th (Slim Pickings)
2009: winner (Mon Mome)
2010: winner (Don’t Push It), 4th (Big Fella Thanks), 5th (Hello Bud) & 6th (Snowy Morning)
2011: 2nd (Oscar Time) & 4th (State Of Play)
2012: 2nd (Nose - aghh!!) (Sunnyhillboy)
2013: 2nd (Cappa Bleu), 3rd (Teaforthree) & 6th (Swing Bill)
2014: 6th (Chance Du Roy) (screwed up my data input for the winner, Pineau De Re, which should have put him on my slip – 4th best rated)
2015: 3rd (Monbeg Dude)
2016: 3rd (Vics Canvas)
2017: 2nd (Cause Of Causes) & 3rd (Saint Are)
2018: 5th (Milansbar), though both Tiger Roll and Bless The Wings were in consideration

Fair to say a winner is due!
 
Came on here for a quick read before selecting a few antepost pokes and blooming glad I did, what a read that is pads! Would Ms Parfois having run so recently put you off her?

No. From post on P15:

It may be said that the GN comes too soon, just 21 days after such a tough race, but her sequence of runs last year read 3111222 (the last six on Soft) and came at an average 24-day gap, with just five days between 2 of the wins. She tends to take her races well but, in any event, has had a much lighter campaign this season – 2 runs. First of the season was a disappointing 6th in the Hennessy in December, after noticeably sweating up prior to the race, but she did likewise on debut the previous season. Handled the hullabaloo of Cheltenham and the GN meeting last season well enough, and won't be "fresh".
 
Hi Kev. I certainly wasn't surprised by Pleasant Company last year because he is from a Grand National winning family. He is closely related to Comply Or Die through the mare Lady Flame.

Go Conquer is related to the 1986 Irish National winner Insure through the mare Audacity. However, I won't be backing him because you are backing him to stay in front for 4 1/4 miles. Once he has been passed I've never then seen him go back past a horse.

Lake View Lad does interest me a lot. Generally speaking, when you see the combination of a horse that is by Oscar out of a Supreme Leader mare they turn out pretty good. Dual placer and Becher winner Oscar Time was one. But you have also had the likes of Black Jack Ketchum, At Fishers Cross, Kilbricken Storm etc. Lake View Lad is actually from the family of a Triumph Hurdle winner (!) but that's ok as a Triumph Hurdle winner won the National last year!

I will get on to the Frenchies later. There are three or four incredibly important stamina influences in French racing.
 
This forum just gets better. Thanks for sharing guys.
 
....no intention of adding to my portfolio, just hope 3 or 4 turn up;

Rathvinden @ 40-1 (backed 30.09): 33-1 (backed 14.02)
Ms Parfois @ 45-1 (backed 30.09)
Rock the Kasbah @ 35-1 (05.03)
PairofBrowneyes @ 40-1 (17.03)
Noble Endeavor @ 50-1 (20.03)
 
This is the first spin of the current one - modifications made post-2012 necessitated a revamp - but the prior incarnation was as follows:

2006: winner (Numbersixvalverde) & 4th (Nil Desperandum)
2007: 2nd (0.75L) (McKelvey)
2008: winner (Comply Or Die), 2nd (King Johns Castle) & 4th (Slim Pickings)
2009: winner (Mon Mome)
2010: winner (Don’t Push It), 4th (Big Fella Thanks), 5th (Hello Bud) & 6th (Snowy Morning)
2011: 2nd (Oscar Time) & 4th (State Of Play)
2012: 2nd (Nose - aghh!!) (Sunnyhillboy)
2013: 2nd (Cappa Bleu), 3rd (Teaforthree) & 6th (Swing Bill)
2014: 6th (Chance Du Roy) (screwed up my data input for the winner, Pineau De Re, which should have put him on my slip – 4th best rated)
2015: 3rd (Monbeg Dude)
2016: 3rd (Vics Canvas)
2017: 2nd (Cause Of Causes) & 3rd (Saint Are)
2018: 5th (Milansbar), though both Tiger Roll and Bless The Wings were in consideration

Fair to say a winner is due!

An impressive set of results.

Is there anything anyone can do to help? :highly_amused:
 
Apologies if this has been mentioned before and I have just missed it but another interesting angle is the Conduit Mare Profile that put in simple terms is the profiling of influential mares in a pedigree that can be broken down into both speed and stamina figures. You can obtain the figures from sites such as pedigreequery with a fee.

One thing that does spring out at you when looking at the stamina figures of the past 20 Grand National winners is not one has had a stamina figure outside the range of 12-16.

2018 Tiger Roll
CMP = 4-4-4-10-5 Speed = 8 Stamina = 15
2017 One For Arthur
CMP = 7-3-2-8-8 Speed = 10 Stamina = 16
2016 Rule The World
CMP = 5-5-4-9-6 Speed = 10 Stamina = 15
2015 Many Clouds
CMP = 4-5-5-5-10 Speed = 9 Stamina = 15
2014 Pineau De Re
CMP = 5-1-5-10-3 Speed = 6 Stamina = 13
2013 Auroras Encore
CMP = 4-5-5-10-6 Speed = 9 Stamina = 16
2012 Neptune Collonges
CMP = 2-0-7-6-6 Speed = 2 Stamina = 12
2011 Ballabriggs
CMP = 2-3-9-9-4 Speed = 5 Stamina = 13
2010 Don't Push It
CMP = 3-6-2-7-9 Speed = 9 Stamina = 16
2009 Mon Mome
CMP = 3-7-4-12-4 Speed = 10 Stamina = 16
2008 Comply or Die
CMP = 5-5-5-8-4 Speed = 10 Stamina = 12
2007 Silver Birch
CMP = 3-1-7-5-10 Speed = 4 Stamina = 15
2006 Numbersixvalverde
CMP = 5-3-5-5-10 Speed = 8 Stamina = 15
2005 Hedgehunter
CMP = 5-6-1-9-6 Speed = 11 Stamina = 15
2004 Amberleigh House
CMP = 6-1-7-4-8 Speed = 7 Stamina = 12
2003 Monty's Pass
CMP = 5-2-2-8-8 Speed = 7 Stamina = 16
2002 Bindaree
CMP = 4-3-9-4-10 Speed = 7 Stamina = 14
2001 Red Marauder
CMP = 4-2-4-8-7 Speed = 6 Stamina = 15
2000 Papillon
0-6-3-8-8 Speed = 6 Stamina = 16
1999 Bobbyjo
CMP = 7-2-3-4-11 Speed = 9 Stamina = 15


There are a fair few fancied horses that do NOT meet this profile in the race such as

ALPHA DES OBEAUX
BALLYOPTIC
DOUNIKOS
LAKE VIEW LAD (blast!)
MINELLA ROCCO
MS PARFOIS
PAIROFBROWNEYES
RAMSES DE TEILLEE
RATHVINDEN
ROCK THE KASBAH
WALK IN THE MILL
YALA ENKI
 
Apologies if this has been mentioned before and I have just missed it but another interesting angle is the Conduit Mare Profile that put in simple terms is the profiling of influential mares in a pedigree that can be broken down into both speed and stamina figures. You can obtain the figures from sites such as pedigreequery with a fee.

One thing that does spring out at you when looking at the stamina figures of the past 20 Grand National winners is not one has had a stamina figure outside the range of 12-16.

2018 Tiger Roll
CMP = 4-4-4-10-5 Speed = 8 Stamina = 15
2017 One For Arthur
CMP = 7-3-2-8-8 Speed = 10 Stamina = 16
2016 Rule The World
CMP = 5-5-4-9-6 Speed = 10 Stamina = 15
2015 Many Clouds
CMP = 4-5-5-5-10 Speed = 9 Stamina = 15
2014 Pineau De Re
CMP = 5-1-5-10-3 Speed = 6 Stamina = 13
2013 Auroras Encore
CMP = 4-5-5-10-6 Speed = 9 Stamina = 16
2012 Neptune Collonges
CMP = 2-0-7-6-6 Speed = 2 Stamina = 12
2011 Ballabriggs
CMP = 2-3-9-9-4 Speed = 5 Stamina = 13
2010 Don't Push It
CMP = 3-6-2-7-9 Speed = 9 Stamina = 16
2009 Mon Mome
CMP = 3-7-4-12-4 Speed = 10 Stamina = 16
2008 Comply or Die
CMP = 5-5-5-8-4 Speed = 10 Stamina = 12
2007 Silver Birch
CMP = 3-1-7-5-10 Speed = 4 Stamina = 15
2006 Numbersixvalverde
CMP = 5-3-5-5-10 Speed = 8 Stamina = 15
2005 Hedgehunter
CMP = 5-6-1-9-6 Speed = 11 Stamina = 15
2004 Amberleigh House
CMP = 6-1-7-4-8 Speed = 7 Stamina = 12
2003 Monty's Pass
CMP = 5-2-2-8-8 Speed = 7 Stamina = 16
2002 Bindaree
CMP = 4-3-9-4-10 Speed = 7 Stamina = 14
2001 Red Marauder
CMP = 4-2-4-8-7 Speed = 6 Stamina = 15
2000 Papillon
0-6-3-8-8 Speed = 6 Stamina = 16
1999 Bobbyjo
CMP = 7-2-3-4-11 Speed = 9 Stamina = 15


There are a fair few fancied horses that do NOT meet this profile in the race such as

ALPHA DES OBEAUX
BALLYOPTIC
DOUNIKOS
LAKE VIEW LAD (blast!)
MINELLA ROCCO
MS PARFOIS
PAIROFBROWNEYES
RAMSES DE TEILLEE
RATHVINDEN
ROCK THE KASBAH
WALK IN THE MILL
YALA ENKI

....that scuppers my ante-posts.
 
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It's probably just a coincidence! I looked at the Midlands National too and of the last 10 winners there is one horse that didn't meet the 12-16 stamina range and that was Goulanes.
 
Well, if you took the National from the 2013 alterations the Stamina figure range is actually 13-16. The speed figure is a range from 6-10.

Horses that meet both ranges in the top 50 are numerous so if it continues, it is more of a tool for discarding horses

Here they are (amazing how many of Elliott's meet both)

BRISTOL DE MAI
TIGER ROLL
OUTLANDER
DON POLI
SUB LIEUTENANT
MALA BEACH
ONE FOR ARTHUR
WARRIORS TALE
REGAL ENCORE
A TOI PHIL
JURY DUTY
MONBEG NOTORIOUS
DAKLONDIKE
STEP BACK
UP FOR REVIEW
SINGLEFARMPAYMENT
GENERAL PRINCIPLE
LIVELOVELAUGH
FOLSOM BLUE
 
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Thanks for that. I keep trying to find alternatives to Tiger Roll as he’s so short but if granted a clear round he just wins doesn’t he?
 
Btw with so many Elliot horses on your list, William Hill go 6/4 Gordon Elliot trains the winner.......
 
Well, if you took the National from the 2013 alterations the Stamina figure range is actually 13-16. The speed figure is a range from 6-10.

Horses that meet both ranges in the top 50 are numerous so if it continues, it is more of a tool for discarding horses

Here they are (amazing how many of Elliott's meet both)

BRISTOL DE MAI
TIGER ROLL
OUTLANDER
DON POLI
SUB LIEUTENANT
MALA BEACH
ONE FOR ARTHUR
WARRIORS TALE
REGAL ENCORE
A TOI PHIL
JURY DUTY
MONBEG NOTORIOUS
DAKLONDIKE
STEP BACK
UP FOR REVIEW
SINGLEFARMPAYMENT
GENERAL PRINCIPLE
LIVELOVELAUGH
FOLSOM BLUE

If you then add in the won or placed in a chase over 26f+ you whittle it right down to,

BRISTOL DE MAI
TIGER ROLL
DON POLI
MALA BEACH
ONE FOR ARTHUR
REGAL ENCORE
JURY DUTY
DAKLONDIKE
STEP BACK
SINGLEFARMPAYMENT
GENERAL PRINCIPLE
FOLSOM BLUE

Add in horses that have won or placed in a Chase with 18+ runners and you are left with

TIGER ROLL
MALA BEACH
ONE FOR ARTHUR
REGAL ENCORE
JURY DUTY
STEP BACK
SINGLEFARMPAYMENT
GENERAL PRINCIPLE
FOLSOM BLUE

Add in 3 or more seasonal runs and you're down to

TIGER ROLL
JURY DUTY
SINGLEFARMPAYMENT
GENERAL PRINCIPLE
FOLSOM BLUE

Given that Elliott has certainly not been firing on all cylinders this season and currently has only had 8 winners from his last 90 runners, the fact he has four in that little group is a bit of a worry. The alternative is the highly reliable winning machine Singlefarmpayment!!!!!!!
 
Singlefarmpayment is also 41 in the entries list....so potentially bottom weight!! Do you think he will stay?? The furtherst he’s ran is 27F and from his form data he has never ran at Aintree nor Haydock before??
 
My guess is that he will stay. He is by a grand National winning stallion (and third and fifth). His damsire Shardari is also on the dam side of Pleasant Company, there is multiple four mile winning stallion and dual Grand National runner up stallion Supreme Leader in the dam and the much more rare influence of Raise You Ten five generations back. If terrible bad luck hadn't been a part Raise You Ten would have most probably had a Gold Cup winner in Ten Plus. Raise you Ten also produced the highly talented four mile winner Twin Oaks who went off second fav for the 1992 National and finished fifth. The worry in his pedigree is Irish St Leger winner Royal Highway, who like Raise You Ten, wasn't a prolific stallion but produced one stand out horse who could never quite see out the Gold Cup distance namely Wayward Lad.

The long run in is a bit of a worry. He doesn't always like to go past does he? Plus the Tom George stable isn't exactly firing at the moment. Bar one near miss they had a lamentable Festival including Singlefarmpayment.
 
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