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2017 Cheltenham Gold Cup

I think you've got the field covered Kev. Personally, I like to make sure the horse I like most is my biggest winner - difficult for you to do in this market considering the price Thistlecrack is now.

Is it worth increasing your stake on Native River considering your initial bet if it doesn't cover your outlay on the race?
 
Looks like you have the race well and truly covered Kev, although like FM has said, maybe a couple more points on NR as cover?

Out of interest, is this a first time plan? Or have you done it before and been successful?
 
Think you should go the whole hog and get a bookies licence Kev :p
 
Kev - I have a similar approach to you in covering many options - especially in the "Big 4" races.
My saving grace however, is that from March to December, I ONLY use Free Bets for Antepost betting. (In comparison to some of you, I assume that I am a relatively small-stakes chap - so this works for me :))

The longer term bets generally have more risks attached (more time to get injured etc...) and I don't mind losing a Free Bet, as much as cold-hard cash :)

This approach seems to work, as the markets are less volatile at this time of year and I'm less likely to "miss a price" by waiting until I have a Free Bet available.

From January onwards, I start investing "cash" in races that I have less investment in - but my exposure is vastly reduced (giving a much better chance of a profitable fez!)

(ie Total of 148 points thus far, 40 points cash and 108 points in Free Bets)

As such, I feel less inclined to "plug gaps" in my portfolio - BUT if I was in your position - I would certainly want my biggest fancy for each race as the one that returns most profit.
 
Thanks for the responses.

ComplyOrDie - Yes I did it for the first time last year and similarly to Leman I tried it for all the championship races. I had the entire field for profit apart from the 100/1 rams that would have been break even. Biggest winner was Don Poli, Second Don Cossack and those two were head and shoulders above the rest. (Ante post at 10s on DC the key that year too and Djakadam at 25s) vautour did hurt a bit but I 'couldn't lose'

FM - Yes I think I probably should. Win only or each way is the dilemma I suppose?

Mayo - :highly_amused: :very_drunk: literally my dream

Leman - where do you get the free bets from. I know sly give those £5s out (used to be 10) but I don't tend to get many but if I did I'd absolutely agree
 
Leman - where do you get the free bets from. I know sly give those £5s out (used to be 10) but I don't tend to get many but if I did I'd absolutely agree

I get £5 a week from Sly and Lads offer Free Bets of up to £25 if your footy multiple (5+) misses by one. I seem to hit a fair few anyway, but the ones that hit the bar - I just whack on my Antepost Portfolio.

Betfair offer the odd one for things like Prem Top Goalscorer (and a Freebie every time they score pre-xmas) etc.., etc..

"Chasing" Free Bets isn't wise, but if they are being offered to you for a market that you would dabble in anyway, Win/Win
 
I get £2 from Harry Kane but that has been my only football bet in about 12 months. Gone right off it.



NAtive River, NRNB 5/1 Each way or just cover the win?
 
Is he only 5/1? Ignore my post - I wouldn't back him at that price.
 
Really interested to see your approach in the race Kev. You look to be in a cracking position :encouragement: I think we've touched upon us having a different approach before, where i'm quite reluctant to get involved in more than 2-3 for a race. It's something i'm very interested in looking at for next years festival though as a change of approach.

I'd be interested in how you are doing in the other Championship races right now too with a similar breakdown in each thread?

You mentioned you had missed the price on NR, and that you had left alone Coneygree, Valseur Lido and Vautour. Do you tend to try and have the field covered come race day even if the big price you'd like has been taken and although they may not be your main fancy to win they'd be in with a chance. Especially if the price didn't allow for each-way? i.e a horse you have missed got down to say 7/2 and he's the only horse in the field the morning of the race that you have no cover on? (if that makes sense?!)

Also if you (or anyone else here) lay any of your bets to ensure profit?
 
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Really interested to see your approach in the race Kev. You look to be in a cracking position :encouragement: I think we've touched upon us having a different approach before, where i'm quite reluctant to get involved in more than 2-3 for a race. It's something i'm very interested in looking at for next years festival though as a change of approach.

I'd be interested in how you are doing in the other Championship races right now too with a similar breakdown in each thread?

You mentioned you had missed the price on NR, and that you had left alone Coneygree, Valseur Lido and Vautour. Do you tend to try and have the field covered come race day even if the big price you'd like has been taken and although they may not be your main fancy to win they'd be in with a chance. Especially if the price didn't allow for each-way? i.e a horse you have missed got down to say 7/2 and he's the only horse in the field the morning of the race that you have no cover on? (if that makes sense?!)

Also if you (or anyone else here) lay any of your bets to ensure profit?

I think I'll do some very detailed analysis after this years festival and see how I cmpare to others with different approaches like yours... can always improve and look to change for the better!

Yeh I will do it for each of the threads that I have taken this approach with, I think I did it already in the Stayers in a little less detail at the time with regards to actual returns but I shall go back and do that too.

I don't lay any bets off to ensure profit on any race that I have a strong opinion on... I haven't layed anything on betfair for a good few years and even then it was for really small stakes when I was learning how it all worked. It is something I would consider but I would feel like I am not betting for enjoyment then, I'd see it as a choir or job. Can think of worse jobs mind, but a job all the same.


Regarding the missing prices on NR, Coneygree etc.... I don't have a hard and fast rule yet. I guess it would be price dependant. I didn't fancy Coneygree at all, and considered him a poor ante-post bet. VL was a bit unsure regarding target to take the risk and Vautour passed before I had really chance to get too deep. NR I should have covered, but that is hindsight, if he'd have not won the Welsh NAtional, he would be an unfancied horse. Just got that one wrong I guess. I think the way the market has gone this year, I probably will end up backing NR (possibly win only on the day, to win my total stake back) as he isn't one of the horses I really fancy. (UNless I change my mind in that time, but I am trying not to let my position in the race change my judgement, but that is hard. Despite having some great prices on other horses, missing the price on NR feels more important ... in short, I don't exactly know yet.

As I said, I'm open to feedback and suggestions
 
Quite a fascinating thread this seeing the various angles that each takes in their approach to bets. I think its fair to say Kev that you have the field well and truly covered here and should be expecting a reasonable return with almost zero risk. As i mentioned on another thread, i think you are best leaving it now until the day as i dont think theres anything further you can add at this stage that will be beneficial.

Do you bet on the day to day stuff Kev or is Cheltenham your sole aim? I'm probably quite fortunate in that all my Cheltenham bets so far have come from day to day winnings. The negative is that with having to keep one eye on both, and wondering which to invest in and when can often leave me missing the boat on a number of festival fancies.. especially if hitting a few losses on the bounce and having a couple of weeks before hitting something big and bouncing back before i have enough of a bank to invest.

So its good in a way - but it means my cheltenham bets almost fall in line with what i fancy at the time the day to day stuff pays out.. for example jenkins, invitation only, getabird are heavily punted due to my returns around the time they were the strong fancies. I've gone through a bit of a dry patch in january though and other than getting some Faugheen, Annie, Douvan + other combos in, i have been restricted somewhat
 
Sorry i meant to add, it would be interesting to see if you were to punt the 28 points at this moment in time what you would pick out. If you were to split it between 3 say and see what the return is. This maybe isn't the best of races to be making the comparison as Thistle crack has absolutely crumbled, but i have a feeling the return on the 3 picked might not be too different to what you are expecting (obviously the difference is that you are almost risk free) but in terms of a profit on the top 3 in the market - how different would it be?

The angle im taking is that if you hadn't been so fortunate with the injuries to Coneygree and Vatour... things might not be looking quite so swell, and if you were to keep your powder dry or at least limited to 2 or 3 early on and then cover what the difference would be
 
I do bet "day-to-day" although usually just watch in the week (replays) and focus on Saturdays. I have put a lot more time & money in to Cheltenham ante-post this year though than ever before. I had some good days on the flat and used that to start my ante-post punting but since then I've just backed whenever I fancy something. If I haven't "won" that day, I would feel 'doubly punished' by missing a price. In all honesty, at this stage of the season I am happy 'leaving one behind' on a Saturday (Obviously every situation/horse is different so I don't have a hard and fast rule)


I agree it would be interesting to see where I would punt 28 points now on this race, but I don't think I could (or anyone could) give a fair analysis on that given the knowledge and mind set I already have... I certainly wouldn't have 22.5 points on Thistlecrack to return 45 at this stage though!!!!!


I don't deny I have been lucky with the non runners, although I feel like Don Cossack, Coneygree and Vautour WERE all MORE LIKELY to not turn up, two due to injury and Vautour could easily have defended the Ryanair (yes you can argue he wouldn't but that was true until the Tuesday of the festival last year too).... so I would think it is unfair to say I have been just lucky (not that you are saying that) any more so than anyone is with any bet.

I wouldn't consider 8/1 on Thistlecrack lucky because when I placed the bet, it was under the impression that although he was already "too short for a novice", if he won, he'd keep getting shorter. Placing ante-post bets a lot of the time is based on the fact they will shorten and you're beating SP (regardless of whether you trade out or not... which I don't at the momet)
 
Thistlecrack can be backed at 5/6 NOT to win the Gold Cup on Sky
 
Tizzard regarding Alary

"He scoped a little bit dirty and coughed a couple of times after the race. We've nothing else coughing but he was quite close to Thistlecrack, Cue Card and Native River [in the yard] so almost before he pulled up, he was moved!
"There's nothing wrong with him and he's exercised with the other horses. I think it's just a French horse coming over, getting little English germs and viruses that all our horses get immune to and he hasn't yet. I still think he's a beautiful horse. He'll run again and have a Grand National entry.
"The Gold Cup is still a possible. He could be right back to himself in seven weeks. He obviously wasn't right because he coughed after and scoped dirty.
"We've scoped six this year and they've all scoped as clean as a whistle and that's the first one we've had with a little bit of mucus and it was only minor as well. Just in case, he's down the other end of the yard!"
 
Interesting read from Andy Holding about Bristol De Mai

Thistlecrack has dominated the market for the Blue Riband event at the Cheltenham Festival pretty much all season long and he cemented his position as firm favourite with his brilliant win in the King George on Boxing Day. At a top price even money, however, he makes little or no appeal as a solid betting medium two months in advance as he’s likely to be a similar or even bigger price given how the markets tend to operate on the day itself. On top of that, it’s not as if he’s totally risk-free or as good as everyone thinks based on his speed figures. On one or two occasions, his jumping – especially at ditches – has been enough to turn the stomach of the calmest onlooker and it will be interesting to see how he fares when he faces his last examination around the Gold Cup course at Cheltenham this coming Saturday.

On the speed figure front, although he’s posted some decent numbers, he hasn’t done anything yet to suggest he’s miles ahead of the rest of the pack and there are some grounds to think he’s actually got to improve to beat some of his opponents on the big day. Taking his King George performance as an example, and visually it looked spectacular, but on closer examination, it wasn’t as good as the eye suggested it was. His overall time of 5.53.50 was smart, but it only marginally bettered the effort of Royal Vacation’s win over the same C&D in the Kauto Star Novices’ Chase to the tune of 0.7 seconds, and if Might Bite had stayed on his feet in the latter contest, the son of Kayf Tara would have been some way behind the time posted by Nicky Henderson’s crack novice. Indeed, timing the pair from the path going away from the stands to the last fence where Might Bite fell, it shows that Colin Tizzard’s charge was 1.3 seconds slower on the final lap than the unfortunate novice. Furthermore, the even more revealing statistic about the two races was Might Bite’s 58.1 from four out to the last in comparison to Thistlecrack’s 1.00.0 – and that was point of the race where Thistlecrack was seemingly going into overdrive. This suggests either the former is a total worldy and should be running in the Gold Cup and not the RSA, or we should all be calming down regarding the latter. The truth probably lies somewhere in between.

So if Thistlecrack isn’t the modern-day Arkle as some have suggested, who are his main dangers and, more importantly, what is the best value bet left in the race. Well, the logical threat looks to be stablemate Native River based on his two tremendous performances in the Hennessy and Welsh National and although they may have only been top-quality handicaps, let’s not forget the likes of Cool Ground, Master Oats and Synchronised trod similar paths before they went on to Gold Cup glory in the same season. Looking at Native River’s Hennessy win and it gives us some idea of what he achieved in comparison to his stablemate who took the Bet365 Novices chase over 3f shorter earlier on the card. Off the back of much stronger overall fractions, the son of Indian River still managed to run a final lap of 3.05.3 which was only 1.6 slower than Thistlecrack’s circuit time, so he’s clearly not a million miles away from his stablemate based on these figures and he still seems to be improving. At 6-1, he appears the no-nonsense each-way alternative to the favourite at this stage.

Another to throw his hat firmly into the ring recently is BRISTOL DE MAI (best price 20-1) who went from an unconsidered 66-1 poke to genuine dangerous Gold Cup floater following what can only be described as a total demolition job of his field in the Peter Marsh Chase at Haydock. Not only was his visually impressive at the Lancashire venue, the figures he posted reminded everyone of what he’s capable of when he pieces it all together. Earning an 83 rating on my speed figures (Outlander previous best with 82 when winning Lexus and Thistlecrack’s best 73 at Newbury), Nigel Twiston-Davies’ charge also ran the final lap 2.1 seconds quicker than Waiting Patiently and Ubaltique respectively, which points towards the fact he was getting even stronger the further the race went on. Indeed, even his sectional time on the run-in of 15.8 was much better than the other pair in question (16.6 and 16.4) and these findings are even more impressive given he was heavily eased in the latter stages.

As this race and many others before have told us, the son of Saddler Maker is clearly as very talented horse under certain conditions – a flat, galloping left-hand track on soft ground being his optimum. That said, he also has plenty of smart form on other courses and his run at last year’s Cheltenham Festival in the JLT indicated the fences and undulating nature of Prestbury Park holds no fears. Yet to finish out of the first three in 15 races in this country, he’s a Grade 1 winner over hurdles and fences who has dined at the very top table throughout his brief career, and apart from Native River, is arguably the best jumper in the field. Although soft ground would clearly be a bonus on the day, he’s handled good ground to a decent standard in the past and given how strong he was in the latter stages at Haydock, he’s open to further improvement over the Gold Cup trip. Therefore, despite only Long Run winning as a six-year-old in recent times, he makes plenty of appeal at his current prices and being as he hails from a trainer who knows what it takes to get a Gold Cup horse prepared for the big day, 20-1 is too big for a horse of his consistency at the top level and overall talent.

Not one that I have covered as people will see but a compelling case?
 
Where do we go from here? Thistlecrack jumping shockingly and being beaten by the late great Many Clouds. Out to around 2/1 and even 5/2 at Betfair. If he jumps like that he wont win a Gold Cup. Do we take the gamble at 5/2 or find a bigger price to take him on with. Hes already in my book but I cant see much value in rushing in on him now?
 
Back him all day long, no Coneygree, Don Cossack and now Many Clouds, whose going to put his jumping to the test now? Other than Outlander each way, I can't see any other bet in the race?