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National Hunt Chase (4 miler) 2018

Elegant Escape is entered up at Exeter on Sunday having not been declared after the entry stage at Wetherby last weekend.
3m54y Graduation Chase. Fountains Windfall also entered though I imagine he's more likely for Ascot a week later.
 
Philip Reynolds by no means confirmed Mall Dini for this today. “You’d have to admit that he’s been a bit disappointing so far over fences. He’s still a novice, which means he could run in the four-miler at Cheltenham or else run in the Kim Muir”. Kim Muir all the way for me, 3m 2 on good ground I’d have him favourite for that over Squoateur
 
Philip Reynolds by no means confirmed Mall Dini for this today. “You’d have to admit that he’s been a bit disappointing so far over fences. He’s still a novice, which means he could run in the four-miler at Cheltenham or else run in the Kim Muir”. Kim Muir all the way for me, 3m 2 on good ground I’d have him favourite for that over Squoateur

I backed him for the RSA and it is hard to believe he hasn't threatened to win a race. Bit disappointing is something of an understatement. What's the thinking on the Kim Muir? That old plodder Potters Legend went past him on the run in last year.
 
I backed him for the RSA and it is hard to believe he hasn't threatened to win a race. Bit disappointing is something of an understatement. What's the thinking on the Kim Muir? That old plodder Potters Legend went past him on the run in last year.

There doesn’t seem to be that many other contenders this year on a good mark so this may be a race to pay close attention to last year’s race. Only beaten 3 lengths last year and didn’t get the best ride imo. Of those reopposing this year the winner might have a go at it again but hasn’t run since, and just think with a slightly better ride Mall Dini would come out on top out of that lot. His mark is ok but seemingly a bit ground dependent nowadays. On good ground he’ll surely make the frame
 
Philip Reynolds by no means confirmed Mall Dini for this today. “You’d have to admit that he’s been a bit disappointing so far over fences. He’s still a novice, which means he could run in the four-miler at Cheltenham or else run in the Kim Muir”. Kim Muir all the way for me, 3m 2 on good ground I’d have him favourite for that over Squoateur

With those comments, and Monalee winning and being targeted at the RSA ... maybe they're thinking they should just win the race that is LOADS easier to win?

I made my points in the RSA thread about how I think PP would get on versus Monalee, but there is absolutely NO DOUBT in my mind that the 4 miler is a much more winnable, and more suitable race for Presenting Percy!
 
Easy enough for EE today. Anyone hear or see any post race comments of note from Tizzard?
 
I only had the commentary to go by on Elegant Escape's run today and there doesn't seem to be a replay of the race today on any the sites available (bar the finish from the 2nd last)? A pretty authoritative display though? As expected in that company.

I've resigned myself to the fact he will be going to the RSA now and assumed that win today would have sealed the deal though it's still not certain based on what Joe Tizzard said after the race...

Elegant Escape is entered in the RSA and four-miler and it’s a decision we’ve got to make. I think he’s good enough to run in the RSA and we wanted to get another run into him. He jumped brilliant bar three out and likes it around here. I think we’re favouring the RSA, but if it turned up quicker perhaps the extra distance would help him. This horse has improved all the time and has a big staying handicap in him next season, a Ladbrokes Trophy, or Welsh National. If he progresses again, he’s not far off being a Gold Cup horse

But i'm not holding my breath. I genuinely can't see the sense in going RSA. When putting him up at the start of the year, if someone had told me the season would play out as it has done for the horse I would have been thrilled and delighted. I couldn't have come up with a more ideal scenario for how each race played out with this race in mind.

My only thinking is that the Tizzards believe (and in my opinion are over rating his chance) Black Corton has a major chance in the RSA therefore his 1.5L defeat off levels in the Kauto Star at Kempton and the beating of BC at Newbury when receiving weight means there's little if anything between the pair. I've written BC off this season before and been proved wrong and history may repeat itself but personally I see the likes of Presenting Percy and Monalee as much stronger opponents so I don't think BC will be anywhere near good enough and that's before factoring in the likes of Al Boum Photo/Invitation Only etc.

You'd have to have a major worry that even if connections decided to go for this race after all, it sounds like it's not going to be a decision they will be making anytime soon and now really is the time where you need to work on getting a top amateur onboard sooner rather than later (I know Legg rode NR into 2nd)


*as a side note has anyone heard anything regarding Fagan? The long break is not a problem if no setback (would match Tiger Roll's season last year when winning) but with Rathvinden seemingly heading here, it would be a surprise for the owner to run both in the same race? Particularly as they would likely be his only 2 festival runners?
 
Not just pocket talking but just can’t see him troubling the principals in an RSA but looks tailor made for the Four Miler.

Sums up my exact thoughts as well in one sentence CCM.
And apologies RC - didn't see you posted the quotes until after I wrote the post
 
No need to apologise Jono. Most of us feel the same about this, was still a great early shout by yourself even if he does end up going RSA
 
Sums up my exact thoughts as well in one sentence CCM.
And apologies RC - didn't see you posted the quotes until after I wrote the post

I honestly would run him in the rsa. I think he's got the rsa written all over him. If he went rsa and wasn't good enough you can take that on the chin and theres no what ifs. You known hes a solid performer over 3m. He ran samcro close in his ptp. Close 2nd in a grade 1 with previous form of beating the winner.
He won his trial today. Why step in to the unknown? You've got he whole future to run over further if required. But why not see just how good he is at championship pace around Cheltenham. And take it from there. He has more right to be in the rsa than presenting percy ,
 
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He was run off his feet the whole way in that Grade One though. And that was a poor Grade One with only four finishers on soft ground. He simply doesn’t have the pace for an RSA on decent ground to my eyes.

The Four Miler is an unknown for most, but stamina looks his forte. There is a reason he’s so much shorter in the betting for the longer race imo; it’s the easier race for him to win.
 
He was run off his feet the whole way in that Grade One though. And that was a poor Grade One with only four finishers on soft ground. He simply doesn’t have the pace for an RSA on decent ground to my eyes.

The Four Miler is an unknown for most, but stamina looks his forte. There is a reason he’s so much shorter in the betting for the longer race imo; it’s the easier race for him to win.

I wouldn't agree it was ran at a relentless pace with the likes of ballyoptic outpaced behind,

The one thing I don't like. Not aimed at here at all, Honestly
why's nobody moaning about PP going rsa on Twitter. When he hasnt took in any of the trials and ran over 3m4.
But moaning about a horse who's ran in the trials booked his place and the owner who pays the bills wants to go for glory. And calling the owner all sorts of names because they've had a few quid on for the 4 miler.. because his hurdles form wasn't as good as PP so assume hes not as good a chaser.
 
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I think the PP situation is different because the owners have another horse to consider. Mall Dini is a previous Festival winner so needs respect for me and it makes sense to split the two of them up.

I also think PP is a better animal than EE myself.

I wish the owners good luck wherever they go and have a decent cover bet at 33’s for the RSA so will still win plenty if he goes there. I just don’t think he’d have anything like the same chance.
 
I think the PP situation is different because the owners have another horse to consider. Mall Dini is a previous Festival winner so needs respect for me and it makes sense to split the two of them up.

I also think PP is a better animal than EE myself.

I wish the owners good luck wherever they go and have a decent cover bet at 33’s for the RSA so will still win plenty if he goes there. I just don’t think he’d have anything like the same chance.


All good points :).
As much as we all have opinions on who we think will win. No doubt there'll be suprises. If all the ones we think are unlikely winners diddnt run, it would be a pretty boring sport. Plenty of stars have been born from humble beginnings. Might bite for one, who could have forseen him turning out the way he has as a modest hurdler
 
I'd echo a lot of what CCM is saying here, the 2nd place in a grade 1 at Kempton is in all likelyhood pretty flattering for Elegant Escape. Obviously we can't say what would have happened if both Mia's Storm and more importantly Fountains Windfall had of stayed up but at the points where they fell - first Mia's Storm was ahead of Elegant Escape who at the time was been pushed along, ridden and on his feet before clattering the 6th out and then fallen at 5 out. FW then fell 4 out when it looked like he had the race at his mercy. Now again for all we know EE may well have finished second regardless but i'd argue that would have been unlikely, certainly finishing in front of FW. If both had finished ahead of him that day - would a 4th instead of 2nd in that race changed the outcome of his target?

15 Oct - 3.5L behind Mia's Storm
7 Nov - 13L behind Ballyoptic
2 Dec - 0.5L ahead of Black Corton (receiving 3lbs, Fountains Windfall every chance before falling)
26 Dec - 1.5L behind Black Corton (this time level weights, Fountains Windfall several lengths ahead before falling)
11 Feb - 13L ahead of Ramses de Teillee

Elegant Escape is only 6 years old. In time and long term I would be surprised if he hasn't clearly outclassed the likes of Black Corton, Ballyoptic and Mia's Storm but right now his form is heavily tied in closely with those runners. Ballyoptic clearly ran no race at Kempton yet put him away easily the previous time they met. Off level weights Black Corton reversed the form at Newbury and it's questionable whether Mia's Storm may well have beaten him for the second time at Kempton.

You say if it turns out he wasn't good enough in the RSA they'd take it on the chin...if he's outpaced in the RSA but stays on up the hill, surely that would have made them think "maybe we should have gone for the 4 miler". If they decide to go for this race then he's their most likely winner of the whole week. They have a horse in the yard in Native River who tackled the 4 miler when you could have used the same argument for him. He came second then went onto win the Hennessy, Welsh National and 3rd in the Gold Cup the next year. And this year again is a strong contender for the Gold Cup. They are already talking about the same targets for Elegant Escape. So why change a formula that worked well previously. Particularly as the 4 miler had been mentioned several times early on in the season. Plans are always fluid of course and fair enough if the horse had showed a massive level of improvement as the season has gone on and forced their hand but his form is solid over spectacular.

He's one of my favourite horses of the season and i'm on 55/1 in this race and then 40/1 for the RSA so if he proved me wrong and won the RSA i'd still be absolutely delighted but all the evidence in his chasing career from what i've seen so far suggests the 4 miler is the best race for him - for the level he's been running too and how he's ran during each race.

I can see your point on Presenting Percy. My view on him - like i've said before I actually don't think Cheltenham is at the forefront of connections mind. The Irish National is the one for them. They haven't campaigned the horse for a specific festival race as such imo, instead favouring a pretty shrewd bit of placing for prize money route towards the Spring. €29.5k for the November Fairyhouse Handicap and €26.5k and Galmoy Hurdle are decent size prize pots in arguably easier races - more than most grade 2 chases (the grade 2 on Boxing Day that Al Boum Photo fell in was worth €26k). At the forefront of their minds I feel is to keep the partnership up with Russell, something that can't be done in this race and they can try and go for the extra £25k that the RSA is worth. Plus add in the fact of Mall Dini like CCM says. He'd win this race hands down for me, it's the most logical race and his best chance of winning at the festival. They're not going to pass up a strong chance at the festival with a horse like him but I don't think they'd care less if he ran say 4th in the RSA and then followed up with a win in the National. IF connections had actually wanted to work back from the RSA and it was all about that race, I think he would have been campaigned in a more traditional manner and taken in the main Irish trials.

Even taking Presenting Percy aside, where do you place the likes of Elegant Escape, and Black Corton against say the Flogas field, many of which are likely to step up to 3 miles?
 
I'd echo a lot of what CCM is saying here, the 2nd place in a grade 1 at Kempton is in all likelyhood pretty flattering for Elegant Escape. Obviously we can't say what would have happened if both Mia's Storm and more importantly Fountains Windfall had of stayed up but at the points where they fell - first Mia's Storm was ahead of Elegant Escape who at the time was been pushed along, ridden and on his feet before clattering the 6th out and then fallen at 5 out. FW then fell 4 out when it looked like he had the race at his mercy. Now again for all we know EE may well have finished second regardless but i'd argue that would have been unlikely, certainly finishing in front of FW. If both had finished ahead of him that day - would a 4th instead of 2nd in that race changed the outcome of his target?

15 Oct - 3.5L behind Mia's Storm
7 Nov - 13L behind Ballyoptic
2 Dec - 0.5L ahead of Black Corton (receiving 3lbs, Fountains Windfall every chance before falling)
26 Dec - 1.5L behind Black Corton (this time level weights, Fountains Windfall several lengths ahead before falling)
11 Feb - 13L ahead of Ramses de Teillee

Elegant Escape is only 6 years old. In time and long term I would be surprised if he hasn't clearly outclassed the likes of Black Corton, Ballyoptic and Mia's Storm but right now his form is heavily tied in closely with those runners. Ballyoptic clearly ran no race at Kempton yet put him away easily the previous time they met. Off level weights Black Corton reversed the form at Newbury and it's questionable whether Mia's Storm may well have beaten him for the second time at Kempton.

You say if it turns out he wasn't good enough in the RSA they'd take it on the chin...if he's outpaced in the RSA but stays on up the hill, surely that would have made them think "maybe we should have gone for the 4 miler". If they decide to go for this race then he's their most likely winner of the whole week. They have a horse in the yard in Native River who tackled the 4 miler when you could have used the same argument for him. He came second then went onto win the Hennessy, Welsh National and 3rd in the Gold Cup the next year. And this year again is a strong contender for the Gold Cup. They are already talking about the same targets for Elegant Escape. So why change a formula that worked well previously. Particularly as the 4 miler had been mentioned several times early on in the season. Plans are always fluid of course and fair enough if the horse had showed a massive level of improvement as the season has gone on and forced their hand but his form is solid over spectacular.

He's one of my favourite horses of the season and i'm on 55/1 in this race and then 40/1 for the RSA so if he proved me wrong and won the RSA i'd still be absolutely delighted but all the evidence in his chasing career from what i've seen so far suggests the 4 miler is the best race for him - for the level he's been running too and how he's ran during each race.

I can see your point on Presenting Percy. My view on him - like i've said before I actually don't think Cheltenham is at the forefront of connections mind. The Irish National is the one for them. They haven't campaigned the horse for a specific festival race as such imo, instead favouring a pretty shrewd bit of placing for prize money route towards the Spring. €29.5k for the November Fairyhouse Handicap and €26.5k and Galmoy Hurdle are decent size prize pots in arguably easier races - more than most grade 2 chases (the grade 2 on Boxing Day that Al Boum Photo fell in was worth €26k). At the forefront of their minds I feel is to keep the partnership up with Russell, something that can't be done in this race and they can try and go for the extra £25k that the RSA is worth. Plus add in the fact of Mall Dini like CCM says. He'd win this race hands down for me, it's the most logical race and his best chance of winning at the festival. They're not going to pass up a strong chance at the festival with a horse like him but I don't think they'd care less if he ran say 4th in the RSA and then followed up with a win in the National. IF connections had actually wanted to work back from the RSA and it was all about that race, I think he would have been campaigned in a more traditional manner and taken in the main Irish trials.

Even taking Presenting Percy aside, where do you place the likes of Elegant Escape, and Black Corton against say the Flogas field, many of which are likely to step up to 3 miles?

No idea where elegant escape finishes here but i do know he deserves his place. Anything can happen during the race and the 2 of them black corton elegant escape bring very respectable form and importantly both jump well. It's not aleays the flashy ones that win. They're good consistent grade 1 novices. Good luck to them and connections. If your not in it you can't win. Wouldn't be suprised one bit if either finished infront of PP
 
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