2026 Fulke Walwyn Kim Muir Handicap Chase (Amateur Riders)

[Ellisgittings]

Isn't this an issue with the system that an owner like JP can have a Stayers third and run him down the field over fences so that he can be leniently treated? Majority of other owners would be looking at quicker returns and successes but that doesn't stop them from potentially taking a long term view of things as JP is.

It doesn't help, and they box clever with what they do. Any handicap system is open to abuse - you have to be realistic about that, because it's the reality of the situation. But it shouldn't mean that we reward obvious efforts of abuse with what they want and what they are trying to achieve

 

[Runragged]

I have sympathy for the handicapper as it's not an easy job but there's no other set of connections that are getting 3lb off Jeriko for what he did. And I don't understand why they felt the need to drop the Wallpark when it was nailed on that they're taking the piss.

The handicapper has to rate the horse based on form primarily. He was best in at the weights based on his 148 rating, which is primarily based on his hurdles mark of 149. He has had four runs over fences and hasn't attained the same level in this sphere as he has over the smaller obstacles. The fact he is only down 4lb from his hurdle mark yet on RPR's his form is 10lb below.

There is always examples of horses being able to compete off lower marks in one sphere compared to another. Haiti Couleurs was able to race off a 9lb lower mark over hurdles compared to his chase rating this season as an example.

 

[Ellisgittings]

The handicapper has to rate the horse based on form primarily. He was best in at the weights based on his 148 rating, which is primarily based on his hurdles mark of 149. He has had four runs over fences and hasn't attained the same level in this sphere as he has over the smaller obstacles. The fact he is only down 4lb from his hurdle mark yet on RPR's his form is 10lb below.

There is always examples of horses being able to compete off lower marks in one sphere compared to another. Haiti Couleurs was able to race off a 9lb lower mark over hurdles compared to his chase rating this season as an example.

And we know the reason why haha. I got the original rating of 143 for him - the need to drop him 1lb for yesterday, I'm not as supportive with

 

[Quevega]

And we know the reason why haha. I got the original rating of 143 for him - the need to drop him 1lb for yesterday, I'm not as supportive with

I understand the suspicion and how obvious it looked that he was only really asked to run on before the last.
But it was actually the easiest race for the handicapper to rate him on.
Don't think the UK handicapper will fall for it.

 

[Ellisgittings]

I understand the suspicion and how obvious it looked that he was only really asked to run on before the last.
But it was actually the easiest race for the handicapper to rate him on.
Don't think the UK handicapper will fall for it.

I'd be surprised if the UK handicapper gives him under 145. But I'd have given you 100/1 that they would give Jeriko 3lb less after the last run, so what do I know

 

[FinalFurlong91]

English handicapper to respond appropritely and give him 146 just to mess with them

Realistically im expecting 7 or 8lb tax given hes a 155 hurdler

I noticed him months ago and shouldve backed nrnb for both races once it was available but hey ho

If he does get in wouldnt be surprised if he went off 2/1

Just hope everyone isnt a bunch of hypocrites and boos him if he wins like they did the mighty langer dan

 

[Runragged]

It doesn't help, and they box clever with what they do. Any handicap system is open to abuse - you have to be realistic about that, because it's the reality of the situation. But it shouldn't mean that we reward obvious efforts of abuse with what they want and what they are trying to achieve

But the handicapper has to rate a horse on what they have done, just like the thousands of others they have to rate. Taking Jeriko, he was the highest rated horse in the race last time off the joint lowest rate, yet finishes 6th of the 7 runners, beaten 13 lengths. His rating over fences still doesn't correlate to what he has achieved. Should a handicapper refuse to give a horse a rating of 145 so they don't get accused of deliberately dropping it to get in a limited handicap? Like you say, any handicap system is open to abuse. We see it year in year out on the flat with Prescott running his horses in sprints before upping to long distance when going handicapping.

Maybe there need to be changes to what races the handicapper can assess? Should 2/3/4 runner races be exempt from assessment considering most are tactical affairs and it's hard to say who has run to form and who hasn't?

 

[Ellisgittings]

But the handicapper has to rate a horse on what they have done, just like the thousands of others they have to rate. Taking Jeriko, he was the highest rated horse in the race last time off the joint lowest rate, yet finishes 6th of the 7 runners, beaten 13 lengths. His rating over fences still doesn't correlate to what he has achieved. Should a handicapper refuse to give a horse a rating of 145 so they don't get accused of deliberately dropping it to get in a limited handicap? Like you say, any handicap system is open to abuse. We see it year in year out on the flat with Prescott running his horses in sprints before upping to long distance when going handicapping.

Maybe there need to be changes to what races the handicapper can assess? Should 2/3/4 runner races be exempt from assessment considering most are tactical affairs and it's hard to say who has run to form and who hasn't?

Jeriko barely came off the bridle - he shouldn't have been dropped a pound. Ride the horse on merits, and they should be dropped. Anything otherwise shouldn't be considered imo

 

[Quevega]

But the handicapper has to rate a horse on what they have done, just like the thousands of others they have to rate. Taking Jeriko, he was the highest rated horse in the race last time off the joint lowest rate, yet finishes 6th of the 7 runners, beaten 13 lengths. His rating over fences still doesn't correlate to what he has achieved. Should a handicapper refuse to give a horse a rating of 145 so they don't get accused of deliberately dropping it to get in a limited handicap? Like you say, any handicap system is open to abuse. We see it year in year out on the flat with Prescott running his horses in sprints before upping to long distance when going handicapping.

Maybe there need to be changes to what races the handicapper can assess? Should 2/3/4 runner races be exempt from assessment considering most are tactical affairs and it's hard to say who has run to form and who hasn't?

Jeriko getting dropped the last day is hard to explain though.
It was a guess and looks ropey as fuck.
You could kind of make a case that they've rated it around Doyen Quest running to par but it's still a guess and connections got handed a favour I reckon. Although you could make a case they could have took more off but obviously they think he wasn't totally putting it in.

Winner Salver got raised 2lb to 149.
Doyens Quest was left on the same mark of 144.
Laurens Bay was left on the same mark of 135.
Wade Out left on 145
Jeriko dropped 3lb !
Moon Rocket dropped a 1lb.

 

[Runragged]

Jeriko getting dropped the last day is hard to explain though.
It was a guess and looks ropey as fuck.
You could kind of make a case that they've rated it around Doyen Quest running to par but it's still a guess and connections got handed a favour I reckon. Although you could make a case they could have took more off but obviously they think he wasn't totally putting it in.

Winner Salver got raised 2lb to 149.
Doyens Quest was left on the same mark of 144.
Laurens Bay was left on the same mark of 135.
Wade Out left on 145
Jeriko dropped 3lb !
Moon Rocket dropped a 1lb.

Salver carried 11st 9lb and got put up from 147 to 149

Doyens Quest carried 11st 7lb and was beat 4 1/4 lengths, stayed 144
Laurens Bay carried 11st 4lb and was beat 10 1/2 lengths, stayed 135
Looks like these two ran to their marks considering DQ carried 3lb more and finished 5 1/4 lengths ahead, whilst rated 9lb higher.

Wade Out carried 11st 9lb and was beat 12 lengths in total. Dropped 1lb from 145 to 144, looks light but he had won a listed novice on previous start and RPR's only have 1lb difference between DQ and WO on this run accounting for weight and distance.

JDR carried 11st 4lb and was beat 13 lengths. Previously rated 148 based on hurdles mark, the handicapper now had a second run to more accurately assess his chase ability (Chase debut pulled up and 3rd start was a 2 runner affair), they have considered 3lb drop fair whilst still factoring in his hurdle mark.

Moon Rocket dropped 1lb, token effort as horse was eased off when beat and not getting home.

Accounting for the form of each horse and the weights then the drop for JDR isn't surprising and brings him more in line with what he has achieved so far over fences.

 

[Kauto’s star]

I'm hoping the other pisstake runs in this as I've not backed Jeriko, but am on Wallpark for the NH chase and ultima.

Jeriko IMO is partly handicapper fault though as no reason to drop him the last day.

As a comparison though Jeriko is still 10lb above the hurdle mark he had when beaten on the pertemps.
Whereas the Wallpark in Ireland at least is 10lb below his hurdle mark when he came 3rd in the stayers.

That's why I've backed one and not the other.

If Wallpark gets what I think he'll get and is put on something like 147 then he'd have a great chance for an Irish horse in the Ultima.
I just don't think he'll run.

Depends on how JP wants to split them all.

These JP plots are brilliant if you’re in the know, or pick it up early, horrendous otherwise. At the prices now you just have to take the buggers on and hope they balls up….the one that hurt me the most was iknowtheway in the Kim muir. Still remember it now, he belted the first, I said to my pal ha, thank god I took him on….the rest is history

 

[Liammet]

I'm hoping the other pisstake runs in this as I've not backed Jeriko, but am on Wallpark for the NH chase and ultima.

Jeriko IMO is partly handicapper fault though as no reason to drop him the last day.

As a comparison though Jeriko is still 10lb above the hurdle mark he had when beaten on the pertemps.
Whereas the Wallpark in Ireland at least is 10lb below his hurdle mark when he came 3rd in the stayers.

That's why I've backed one and not the other.

If Wallpark gets what I think he'll get and is put on something like 147 then he'd have a great chance for an Irish horse in the Ultima.
I just don't think he'll run.

Depends on how JP wants to split them all.

The difference between Jeriko and The Wallpark is one is Trained in Uk and one in Ireland

I don’t believe it’s a JP thing

The UK handicapper has been lenient/biassed towards UK horses for last few years

If Jeriko was trained in Ireland there is no way he would be dropped to 145

Likewise,there’s no way The Wallpark will get less than 146

 

[Ellisgittings]

The difference between Jeriko and The Wallpark is one is Trained in Uk and one in Ireland

I don’t believe it’s a JP thing

The UK handicapper has been lenient/biassed towards UK horses for last few years

If Jeriko was trained in Ireland there is no way he would be dropped to 145

Likewise,there’s no way The Wallpark will get less than 146

This would make sense if they didn't let a future gold cup winner, trained in Ireland, in the Kim Muir off 144 haha.

Handicapper has been harsh on some Irish horses in the last 3/4 years but our handicapper is generally reluctant to drop horses, something quite a few trainers have complained about, which made the Jeriko decision such a surprise

 

[Liammet]

This would make sense if they didn't let a future gold cup winner, trained in Ireland, in the Kim Muir off 144 haha.

Handicapper has been harsh on some Irish horses in the last 3/4 years but our handicapper is generally reluctant to drop horses, something quite a few trainers have complained about, which made the Jeriko decision such a surprise

It’s partly because the UK handicapper got caught with his pants down with inothewayurthinkin that he will be careful of letting the same thing happen again

Albeit that nobody could of predicted what that horse would subsequently achieve

It’s just my opinion but I think he dropped Jeriko to 145 because of where he is trained and nothing to do with who owns him

 

[riccirich]

It’s partly because the UK handicapper got caught with his pants down with inothewayurthinkin that he will be careful of letting the same thing happen again

Albeit that nobody could of predicted what that horse would subsequently achieve

It’s just my opinion but I think he dropped Jeriko to 145 because of where he is trained and nothing to do with who owns him

I cant remember the details fully, but I'm pretty sure something a bit dodgy went on with inothewayurthinkins mark at the time.

I think a few people who thought they knew what the mark was going to be or something before it was made public (if thats possible) were told the mark would be higher, but then it wasn't. I might be wrong on that but I definitely remember something along those sort of lines being talked about a lot.

Wouldn't be a big conspiracy theorist myself but would be no surprise to me at all if an owner that invests as much as jp into the game gets a couple of favours every year.

 

[Ellisgittings]

I cant remember the details fully, but I'm pretty sure something a bit dodgy went on with inothewayurthinkins mark at the time.

I think a few people who thought they knew what the mark was going to be or something before it was made public (if thats possible) were told the mark would be higher, but then it wasn't. I might be wrong on that but I definitely remember something along those sort of lines being talked about a lot.

Wouldn't be a big conspiracy theorist myself but would be no surprise to me at all if an owner that invests as much as jp into the game gets a couple of favours every year.

His price didn't shorten though straight away, it was a bit strange. I remember when they released the weights seeing his mark and thinking (trumpet me but I only remember it well coz I backed him haha) surely they aren't gonna run Percival in this when Ino got given the exact same mark and he's miles better. I backed maybe on the day of weights, but it wasn't immediately after weights came out, and he was 16/1. He'd shortened to single figures by the end of the week but his price didn't collapse instantly like say Jeriko's did. I reckon if there was a few that had inside info, he'd have shortened quicker.

Remember the Dame De Compagnie farce. That was another utter disgrace

 

[darlojim]

J'arrive de L'est Kim Muir 25s NRNB with Flutter

Big old price that

 

[Eggs]

….76 entries in post #2, quick cut and paste so disclaimer for any errors.

 

[kinloch brae]

J'arrive de L'est Kim Muir 25s NRNB with Flutter

Big old price that

Presumably, because he is lot shorter price for the Cross Country, and that's where you might expect him to go.

 

[Muswell]

Wont get in if Stumptown stays in will he?