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General Chat

archie said:
If Cheltenham is solely for 'champions' at 'traditional' distances, it could be done in a day.

Supreme
Ballymore
Arkle
RSA
Champion Hurdle
Champion Chase
Gold Cup
Stayers Hurdle
Click to expand...

Then we could have a mares version of all them.
And a handicap version.
Throw in 2 bumpers and a cross country and foxhunters and you've got a festival.
 
archie said:
If Cheltenham is solely for 'champions' at 'traditional' distances, it could be done in a day.

Supreme
Ballymore
Arkle
RSA
Champion Hurdle
Champion Chase
Gold Cup
Stayers Hurdle
Click to expand...

Where's the 4 miler archie ?
Oldest race of the festival is it not ?
And as Q says they can create a Mares 4 miler, a handicap 4 miler, a 4 miler for bay geldings born on a Tuesday....
 
I'd like to see a race for horses that refuse to run.
Like when the cyclists piss about on the velodrome for 2 laps then try and cycle off near the end.
 
Quevega said:
I'd like to see a race for horses that refuse to run.
Like when the cyclists piss about on the velodrome for 2 laps then try and cycle off near the end.
Click to expand...

Mad Moose ante post favourite?
 
Quevega said:
When you say doesn't quite stay. & When you say not quite quick enough.

What does this mean in reality ?

The only Fact is that It's got beat by another horse or two on the day ?

They rarely just stop running and quit. They just get beat sometimes.

When a trainer says a horse didn't stay, what is he actually saying ?

The fact is that they just weren't as good as another horse on the day, in those conditions, at that pace etc etc.....

Kotkijet was trying to illustrate the point, with more detail.

What Ista is saying is that you can go on forever with the distances.

Having said all that, I don't mind all the races. Trainer cliched/excuses get on my tits though.
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I get what you are saying but there’s lots of horses that can win over 3miles when the conditions are right, weaker opposition or race run to suit but that doesn’t necessarily mean that they stay well enough over the 3miles and 2 and a half is their optimum trip. Why should Ryanair horses be forced into the gold cup even though their optimum is over shorter because that distance isn’t traditional?

Allaho is a prime example of a horse that doesn’t quite see out 3 miles well enough and wouldn’t be fast enough for 2. I would also argue that vautour is a Ryanair horse who’s optimum was over the middle distance. My point is I don’t see why having a middle distance championship is so wrong, it’s a big jump between 2 and 3 miles. Nobody crabs flat horses who are 6f specialists and don’t quite see out the 7f so surely this Ryanair bashing and traditional crap is out of date. Move with the times people
 
Kautostar said:
I get what you are saying but there’s lots of horses that can win over 3miles when the conditions are right, weaker opposition or race run to suit but that doesn’t necessarily mean that they stay well enough over the 3miles and 2 and a half is their optimum trip. Why should Ryanair horses be forced into the gold cup even though their optimum is over shorter because that distance isn’t traditional?

Allaho is a prime example of a horse that doesn’t quite see out 3 miles well enough and wouldn’t be fast enough for 2. I would also argue that vautour is a Ryanair horse who’s optimum was over the middle distance. My point is I don’t see why having a middle distance championship is so wrong, it’s a big jump between 2 and 3 miles. Nobody crabs flat horses who are 6f specialists and don’t quite see out the 7f so surely this Ryanair bashing and traditional crap is out of date. Move with the times people
Click to expand...

Yep. I've no particular issue with the intermediate trips, now they're here.

Interestingly I like Allaho for the Gold Cup and hopefully Willie still sees his future as a stayer.
It would be unusual for a horse as it gets older to start wanting a drop in trip.

i'm not saying I don't think Allaho would go close in a Ryanair either. His way of travelling ought to give him a good chance.
But I don't think he didn't stay in the RSA either, as he wasn't beat by far and the front two pretty much ground themselves into the dirt.
If he settles better he ought to be suited by the longer trip I reckon. Willie has clearly thought so since he was a novice.
He's done remarkably well in the races he's run given the way he travels.

Patrick's comments are typical of many in horse racing, regarding him not quite staying, but they went too fast too soon I reckon.

And Vautour is similar, given his enthusiasm could well have been a disadvantage in a Gold cup, unless the jockey judged the pace perfectly.
He also definitely went too fast, too soon in the King George.
 
Istabraq said:
Where's the 4 miler archie ?
Oldest race of the festival is it not ?
And as Q says they can create a Mares 4 miler, a handicap 4 miler, a 4 miler for bay geldings born on a Tuesday....
Click to expand...

Don't forget the veteren mares 4 mile handicap bumper
 
Kautostar said:
I like the Ryanair and marsh races I don’t see why horses can’t be middle distance champions. Not every horse is a straight 2 or 3 miler
Click to expand...

Agree with that mate, people will want the 200m at the Olympics binned next :highly_amused:
 
My Idea of the perfect Cheltenham Festival set up.
To provide the best quality races.

I'd get rid of the Fred winter and introduce a Ryanair 2m 4f hurdle grade 1.

The biggest change would be to hold the festival over two weekends in March. (I've mentioned this before so brought it back by popular demand:highly_amused:)

I'd prefer Saturday & Sunday both weekends, but Friday & Saturday would do.
Both would increase TV viewings and opportunity for the most people to watch.

Then I'd have the races as follows.

First weekend - Novices championship races, Mares Championships races, and intermediate distance championship races.

Like So.

Day one - old course

Supreme Novices Hurdle
Arkle novices chase
Ultima Handicap chase
Mares Hurdle
RSA Novice chase
Ryanair Hurdle
Mares Novice Hurdle


Day two - new course

Ballymore Novice hurdle
Marsh Novices chase
Pertemps Handicap hurdle
Mares Chase
Albert Bartlett Hurdle
Ryanair Chase
Foxhunter chase


Then the following weekend, The four championship races.

The benefit being that any of the runners involved in the novice championships, intermediate championships and mares championships would all be able to enter the championship races. The winners of the races would also be on a big bonus for winning both.

day three - old course

Champion Bumper
Brown Advisory handicap Chase
Coral Cup handicap hurdle
Champion Hurdle
National Hunt Chase
Champion Chase
Grand Annual Handicap Chase

day four - old course

Triumph Hurdle (champion juvenile)
County handicap hurdle
Cross Country Chase (champion cross country)
Stayers Hurdle
Martin Pipe Handicap hurdle
Gold Cup
Kim Muir Handicap Chase


This would be a massive shot in the arm for National Hunt racing.
The build up to both weekends would be awesome. And the week gap would entice some of the better novices, mares etc to have another go the following weekend.

PS.
If anyone mentions what happens to Uttoxeter's big day.
Or not being able to go for the both weekends.
Or traffic.

Then good on you:highly_amused:
 
Last edited:
Quevega said:
My Idea of the perfect Cheltenham Festival set up.
To provide the best quality races.

I'd get rid of the Fred winter and introduce a Ryanair 2m 4f hurdle grade 1.

The biggest change would be to hold the festival over two weekends in March. (I've mentioned this before so brought it back by popular demand:highly_amused:)

I'd prefer Saturday & Sunday both weekends, but Friday & Saturday would do.
Both would increase TV viewings and opportunity for the most people to watch.

Then I'd have the races as follows.

First weekend - Novices championship races, Mares Championships races, and intermediate distance championship races.

Like So.

Day one - old course

Supreme Novices Hurdle
Arkle novices chase
Ultima Handicap chase
Mares Hurdle
RSA Novice chase
Ryanair Hurdle
Mares Novice Hurdle


Day two - new course

Ballymore Novice hurdle
Marsh Novices chase
Pertemps Handicap hurdle
Mares Chase
Albert Bartlett Hurdle
Ryanair Chase
Foxhunter chase


Then the following weekend, The four championship races.

The benefit being that any of the runners involved in the novice championships, intermediate championships and mares championships would all be able to enter the championship races. The winners of the races would also be on a big bonus for winning both.

day three - old course

Champion Bumper
Brown Advisory handicap Chase
Coral Cup handicap hurdle
Champion Hurdle
National Hunt Chase
Champion Chase
Grand Annual Handicap Chase

day four - old course

Triumph Hurdle (champion juvenile)
County handicap hurdle
Cross Country Chase (champion cross country)
Stayers Hurdle
Martin Pipe Handicap hurdle
Gold Cup
Kim Muir Handicap Chase


This would be a massive shot in the arm for National Hunt racing.
The build up to both weekends would be awesome. And the week gap would entice some of the better novices, mares etc to have another go the following weekend.

PS.
If anyone mentions what happens to Uttoxeter's big day.
Or not being able to go for the both weekends.
Or traffic.

Then good on you:highly_amused:
Click to expand...

Thats a great idea. In other news id like to move the first 3 hours of Christmas day to April, then have up until lunchtime in July, the final 12 hours can be spread evenly throughout december
 
aalowe9 said:
Thats a great idea. In other news id like to move the first 3 hours of Christmas day to April, then have up until lunchtime in July, the final 12 hours can be spread evenly throughout december
Click to expand...

:highly_amused:That might be a good idea this year.
 
Envoi Allen would have done the Ballymore and Champion Hurdle double.
 
Faugheen_Machine said:
Envoi Allen would have done the Ballymore and Champion Hurdle double.
Click to expand...

And we'd have had Quevega vs big bucks

Vautour would have had a pop at the double too.

So would Annie P

Honeysuckle

Presenting Percy would have had a go for gold.

Most of the great arkle winners like Douvan & Sprinter & UDS

The races we could have had.
The beauty is we get to see them whilst they're around and fit and well, running against the best.
So many great match ups and races fall by the way side.
 
Quevega said:
And we'd have had Quevega vs big bucks

Vautour would have had a pop at the double too.

So would Annie P

Honeysuckle

Presenting Percy would have had a go for gold.

Most of the great arkle winners like Douvan & Sprinter & UDS

The races we could have had.
The beauty is we get to see them whilst they're around and fit and well, running against the best.
So many great match ups and races fall by the way side.
Click to expand...

I keep thinking of the races we'd have had of they hadn't introduced that bloody Ryanair....... Just gone full circle!:highly_amused:
 
Nice run from Beacon Edge there, promising for when Cedarwood Road turns up.
 
I wouldn't deny that there are plenty of horses whose sweet spot is the immediate distance and I am pleased that such races exist outside of the festival as they can draw the stayers and the speedsters together. Nevertheless, I would still be skeptical of any horse one might call a champion two and a half miler.

If a horse is truly championship class then their optimum ranges should encompass four furlongs over jumps just as they would encompass two furlongs on the flat. The likes of Kauto Star, Dawn Run, Annie Power, Desert Orchid etc were effective over ranges that far exceeded half a mile. In the instance of a horse unable to see out the extended distance of the Gold Cup, a top horse should still have the talent to win the Champion Chase as One Man did. If the horse is too slow for the Champion Chase while not having the stamina to win a Gold Cup then it probably isn't championship class and would likely be beaten over the 2m5f by either a Champion Chaser or a Gold Cup winner if not both.

As for novelty races at the festival, I would quite like to see an eight mile Shetland Pony race held over the cross country course.
 
There’s a massive distance gap between the 2M Champion Chase and the 3M 2&/2F Gold Cup.

It must have been the right thing to do to put a mid-distance RWC in the middle of it at 2M 4&1/2F.

I don’t believe any horse that was seriously going to run in, and stay, the Gold Cup distance on their first run in the race, would be moved back by 6F to the Ryanair.

Vautour was moved to the Ryanair rather than the Gold Cup.
We will never know if he stayed the Gold CUp trip, but if Willie thought he could do, then he would have ran in the Gold Cup.
He didn’t, and was a class winner of the mid-trip race.
Being caught and beaten a Head in the King George over 3M probably pointed Willie to the Ryanair.

No loss to any race, just a horse running in the right race for their ability/stamina?
 
They moved Vautour cos they thought Djakadam had the gold cup in the bag, after a piece of work before the meet.

Unfortunately we never got to see Vautour in the Gold cup.
You're talking with hindsight at the forefront.

It's always the right race when they've just won it. :victorious:
 
Quevega said:
They moved Vautour cos they thought Djakadam had the gold cup in the bag, after a piece of work before the meet.

Unfortunately we never got to see Vautour in the Gold cup.
You're talking with hindsight at the forefront.

It's always the right race when they've just won it. :victorious:
Click to expand...

More based on his defeat at Kempton, having looked the winner.
 
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