Dear Diary

[Kevloaf]

A mammoth task trying to get a grip of everything that's been mentioned on this topic :disillusionment:


I thought I should just put this out there, as I'm bored and putting off doing something for work and this is a welcome distraction :barbershop_quartet_member:

So...
The diaries were set up originally because I used to get annoyed at people giving their opinions without backing up what they'd actually done themselves. I felt that without posting your own bets, it lacked a certain level of credibility... IIRC, it was the wonderful and irreplaceable Lobos that was the main culrpit at the time, before he caved in :love_heart:

They evolved into really useful places for individuals to discuss and explain their ante post approach to Cheltenham, in my opinion anyway! They were a place to ask specific people 'why' and 'how' they go about things, and help each other, and away from the 'main forum' where we have a lot of potential for bookie-shaped lurkers...


There never was a guideline for how to use them anyway... mine was always an area to ask for help, and explain what I was doing, and see what I could do to improve, as well as obviously to massage my own ego a bit when it went well...:triumphant:

Now, in the main, they seem to be used more as record keeping for people - which is absolutely fine. Isn't it?

Thoughts welcome, might as well thrash it out all in one place rather than sporadically in general chat and specific diaries.


Anyone got any constructive ideas going forwards, anyone want rules? (including around 'aftertiming') Do we leave it as it is, like a weed garden?

 

[darlojim]

At the end of the day, it's your own diary, so if you want it just for record keeping then there's nothing wrong with that.

I just felt that with the potential of 'aftertiming', come the evening of the Friday of Cheltenham, that there would be the potential for people to just boast about how they have 200/1 on a 4/6 etc etc. This IMO, is not what the forum needs and no one needs to listen/read that.

PS - Are there going to be any podcasts this year Kev? They got me through the odd wintery weeknight:watermelon:

 

[Kevloaf]

At the end of the day, it's your own diary, so if you want it just for record keeping then there's nothing wrong with that.

I just felt that with the potential of 'aftertiming', come the evening of the Friday of Cheltenham, that there would be the potential for people to just boast about how they have 200/1 on a 4/6 etc etc. This IMO, is not what the forum needs and no one needs to listen/read that.

PS - Are there going to be any podcasts this year Kev? They got me through the odd wintery weeknight:watermelon:

On aftertiming, I think it's a sliding scale based on your credibility... for example, if I after timed a roll up, whilst frowned upon (or worse), I expect I have enough credit in the bank with some members that they'd let it slide, as I don't usually and have been open for years...

If someone new pops up and after times a load of bets without really putting anything in first to raise their stock, it'll get met with a hostile reception and pulled apart.


Yeah, there will be one in a couple of weeks, just rambling about the season preview... might be something regularly each week although not confirmed yet

 

[HesTheOne]

Coming as a new comer to the forum I perceived the diaries as “do what it says on the tin” i.e personal record keeping.

Understand aftertiming is the main contentious point, I myself have brought some forward such as my punchestown ‘22 / Cheltenham ‘23 doubles prior to creating my own diary. In definition this is aftertiming although not hard to believe as they were very popular at the time. Since joining all further roll ups I’ve openly posted prior to the event to ensure transparency.

It can easily become a dick measuring contest (on an Internet forum with invisible strangers obsessed with horses jumping over obstacles) when you have dozens of roll ups and fancy odds with no context.

Perhaps going forward we have a common rule if it’s not posted on the forum before the event then it simply doesn’t make your diary. I believe it will naturally police itself with some of the dedicated members we have here :smile-new:

 

[Kevloaf]

Coming as a new comer to the forum I perceived the diaries as “do what it says on the tin” i.e personal record keeping.

Understand aftertiming is the main contentious point, I myself have brought some forward such as my punchestown ‘22 / Cheltenham ‘23 doubles prior to creating my own diary. In definition this is aftertiming although not hard to believe as they were very popular at the time. Since joining all further roll ups I’ve openly posted prior to the event to ensure transparency.

It can easily become a dick measuring contest (on an Internet forum with invisible strangers obsessed with horses jumping over obstacles) when you have dozens of roll ups and fancy odds with no context.

Perhaps going forward we have a common rule if it’s not posted on the forum before the event then it simply doesn’t make your diary. I believe it will naturally police itself with some of the dedicated members we have here :smile-new:

Knowing how they were intended, rather than how you perceived them, what would you prefer to see going forward?

The problem I can see with that rule, is that if let's say I missed one, my entire diary becomes pointless, as I build a book.... I'd have to leave a gap then despite having a horse backed, that skews it and isn't accurate?

Ultimately, it's too big an admin task to have to commit to, and that woudl discourage some of our better members to not post, and that's worse for everyone?


Hello by the way, I assume you've been welcomed already :cower: .... you need a face.... go here...:cheerful: https://www.fatjockey.com/forum/fat-...e13#post372936

 

[Eggs]

….for me, the site is about highlighting, assessing and discussing ante-post value. I don’t post a diary, my little black book is all I need but if I see a bookies anomaly or what I think is a decent bet I mention it.

i tend not to look at 90% of individual diaries, preferring the more analytical threads like SWs Irish Race Planning Diary or the race threads for pointers aplenty.

i appreciate ‘aftertiming’ is irksome but I tend to believe what the people on here post. If they mislead then it’s a reflection on them. When one of our good folk had the right good touch we all wish for, I didn’t check his diary as I knew the selections had been well and truly highlighted on here at fancy prices. Hell, I guess I wasn’t alone in having them all myself but not in the same bet.

i suppose the issue arises when somebody retrospectively claims a selection or price that hasn’t been mentioned on here. If that’s the case, then it’s taboo; that for me is aftertiming.

 

[Clinker]

I still class myself as a newbie with very limited knowledge. Over the last 18 months I have read and reviewed many diaries and use it as a great sounding board to check my own personal bets. I personally never check what odds you have a certain horse at, as ultimately it doesn't matter, if you have a winner you have a winner!!

I am really disappointed, but totally understand, why some of the FJ family will no longer post their diaries for reasons stated above.

We are all adults, and truly do the odds really matter, we are all in a battle against the bookies. Let's just be supportive of each other in this battle...

 

[HesTheOne]

Knowing how they were intended, rather than how you perceived them, what would you prefer to see going forward? If the intention was for people to put money where their mouth was regarding opinions, than I feel it does satisfy this already with the added form of personal record keeping.

Ultimately, it's too big an admin task to have to commit to, and that woudl discourage some of our better members to not post, and that's worse for everyone?

Agree with this in hindsight, strict monitoring would discourage certain FJs posting which doesn’t benefit anyone.

Hello by the way, I assume you've been welcomed already

Thanks kev! Will have a gander for a shiny profiler.

At the end of the day it’s a difficult topic to tackle, the last thing we want is to lose members input as we have seen the last week or 2.

 

[Lobos]

Got to thank Kev for badgering me into adding my diary as I'd be lost without it now and can't believe how I ever kept grips previously as I mainly use shops so I have 100's of slips come Fez week. Getting older now so the memory isn't as good as it once was !
personally don't give a dot re aftertiming and all for individuals having monster odds on the fancied ones as I love to see the bookies squirming.

 

[charlie]

Roll ups all displayed in one colour would be useful.

 

[Outlaw]

Where's Big Fish and Elegant Escape when you need a balanced debate
Personally I Was never a fan of diary's, use Excel to record your bets or it's always just been ego/I was first. I would say however that since the inception of the diary's the overall standard of the site improved due to some excellent analysis around race routes and got plenty digging around and improving collectively which you can't knock. I'll also add a few on here got put on pedestals so to speak which was inevitable due to success but it got close to follow at all costs rather than debate at times last year and some very insecure posts.

Fine line and only my 2p worth but as many have touched on, you can choose to read what you like and ultimately getting annoyed/offended shouldn't be an issue for anybody on here. We're all grown ups and surely big enough to disagree on plenty but keep contributing collectively, and if a few choose not to continue whilst not ideal, the site continues to attract fresh contributors annually to it's credit.

 

[Dandrew99]

Personally I don't particularly agree with roll ups at all. If you have 1pt on an even money rollup, it's just a 2pt bet rather than doubling the odds. Trying to claim you had a horse at double the odds is just misleading in my opinion, should at least noted what the rollup odds were.

If you have 2pts on a horse, I couldn't really care less if that's one point on an even money rollup or 2pts of actual money. But trying to claim you have double the odds as an aftertime is a bit off.

 

[Benjy23]

Personally I don't particularly agree with roll ups at all. If you have 1pt on an even money rollup, it's just a 2pt bet rather than doubling the odds. Trying to claim you had a horse at double the odds is just misleading in my opinion, should at least noted what the rollup odds were.

If you have 2pts on a horse, I couldn't really care less if that's one point on an even money rollup or 2pts of actual money. But trying to claim you have double the odds as an aftertime is a bit off.

Completely agree with any roll ups involving just events that day and at Cheltenham. It's almost lying to yourself. If spanning a longer period I get it has to be done that way, but is simply a multiple rather than a roll up.

The diaries that have no reasoning and are pure after timing are the ones that get me. As you say, and possibly wrongly, I'd let it slide if one of these with a good reputation and decent content did the occasional after timed acca / price.

To be honest it's a forum and all I'm looking for is a bit of interesting discussion or some insight that I wouldn't otherwise have thought of. There's plenty of that on here, and I'm actually quite surprised that some better respected members seem to have taken the issue so personally.

 

[Quevega]

Where's Big Fish and Elegant Escape when you need a balanced debate
Personally I Was never a fan of diary's, use Excel to record your bets or it's always just been ego/I was first. I would say however that since the inception of the diary's the overall standard of the site improved due to some excellent analysis around race routes and got plenty digging around and improving collectively which you can't knock. I'll also add a few on here got put on pedestals so to speak which was inevitable due to success but it got close to follow at all costs rather than debate at times last year and some very insecure posts.

Fine line and only my 2p worth but as many have touched on, you can choose to read what you like and ultimately getting annoyed/offended shouldn't be an issue for anybody on here. We're all grown ups and surely big enough to disagree on plenty but keep contributing collectively, and if a few choose not to continue whilst not ideal, the site continues to attract fresh contributors annually to it's credit.

Nailed it Outlaw.

This forum is better for the lack of Nobs.
The 2 examples given were exactly that (although at least they were funny at times)

The pedestals thing is also bang on. I remember when I first joined and banging heads with Scooby early on, and the first thing he did was throw out how many thousands he'd recently won.
A Nobby thing to do and this sort of thing happens rarely nowadays.
It didn't stop me from learning to respect some of what he said, and I'd like to think he also adapted to communicate better as most of us should do on a forum like this.

I've never been a fan of being overly deferential and noticed the same sort of things as you clearly did.
Anyone can be useful and useless at different times. Or right or wrong.

Although Kevloaf has a point about earning respect or credibility. Who is the judge of that ? A select few, or up to the individual ? Or should everyone be treated equally, for better or worse.
Everyone should be open to question or scrutiny IMO.

Saxon Warrior made a really good point in TOTG's diary.
It expanded on what I was trying to say, in that when the trail is fresh it's of much more interest /use than when the trail is cold.

This was my main point, in addition to the risk of being overrun with Wayne Harrison types. He can fucking list bets and cannot be bettered.

I know I can sound blunt at times but it's usually married with an attempt at humour or with my tongue firmly in cheek. And absolutely always something I'd say to your face.
I'd expect nothing less of others, and have been abused by posters many times. I soak it up and take it on board or not.

I completely understand that this will not suit everyones pallet, but that's not my concern. As I'm rarely trying to be an arse just for the sake of it.
There's usually a good reason. In my mind at least.

Taking your ball home cos you're upset isn't the best approach to debate.

 

[Kevloaf]

Do you think anyone on here isn't open to question or scrutiny?

I think they are... but maybe I do most of the questioning and scrutinising :loyal:

 

[Quevega]

Do you think anyone on here isn't open to question or scrutiny?

I think they are... but maybe I do most of the questioning and scrutinising :loyal:

I think everyone is.
The issue is that some people don't.

 

[Quevega]

Roll ups all displayed in one colour would be useful.

:highly_amused: Don't know why, but I keep reading this and laughing.

White would be good.

 

[Odin]

On my side, I don't think there should be any rules on what a diary is or isn't. The diaries that don't provide useful information just won't get much traction or discussion anyway. With regards to the debate on different threads, I'm just confused as to why everything blew up like it did. The sequence of events as I saw it was:

1) it was made clear aftertiming wasn't welcome (fine)
2) one person apologised and said they wouldn't continue their diary because it wasn't welcome and a couple who were going to have to aftertime said they wouldn't bother as it had been made clear aftertiming wasn't welcome (also fine I thought?)
3) those people got called snowflakes who should just not read what others say and do what they want (this part I don't get and can't figure out)

I don't believe for a second anyone would miss me if I wasn't posting either in my diary or across the forum. I'm not looking for sympathy there, I just get loads more out of reading the thoughts of everyone else on here than I believe I add. More than anything, I'm just confused by the whole set of events and why it got so personal and divided so quickly. That isn't the behaviour of adults in my opinion :indecisiveness:

 

[That Horse]

I appreciate some missed the original conversation and are catching up but it'll be good when we can move on from this topic as it has been done to death now.

​​​​​​I don't think anyone is advocating for after timers to be banned or anything, so it will continue in some form or another no matter what is said here. Members will have to accept that but of course they're also free to call it out if they wish.

In terms of the diaries, I joined after the diaries were already up and running so it didn't occur to me when I started mine this year that it would benefit others to hear the rhyme or reason behind any selection I make. On reflection, that's clearly of more use than seeing what my points stake is or just the name of a selection.

 

[Exar Essay]

As I see it, the diaries have two purposes; to account for that persons bets, and to help inform other forum users. The better diaries are the ones that achieve both.

Maybe we don't need a rulebook? Maybe we just need an encouragement to try and achieve those two principles where possible to improve the quality of the forum?

Even the obvious selections might have a short justification. Why now? Why that many points? Might be as short an answer as "didn't have him covered and can see him shortening in the early season" but just adds a bit of flavour.

I don't have an issue with after timing particularly so long as the tone of the post isn't gloating. It's just it's less useful to me as I can't do anything with that information after the event.

Maybe those who are listing their successful roll ups after the event might be encouraged to keep a rolling tally of failed roll ups (just points total, not necessarily the failed selections even) to better account?