Champion Hurdle 2019

[Quevega]

I think based on timings and opposition then Rock on Ruby might come out top, a proper demonstration of economic galloping at speed.
Following year not quite so good and The mighty Fly sat a bit closer and was able to pounce.
I rank Jezki's win 1st as it had the supreme 2nd and third, reigning champion hurdler, ballymore winner and triumph winner (all from previous season)

 

[Quevega]

I don't know what you are telling me is conclusive in that case?

Faugheen and Hurricane Fly are the two best Champion Hurdle horses in the last 10 years? I don't think anybody would debate that, comparing which years they beat 160 hurdlers only takes you so far...

I'd go back to, Buveur D'air I wouldn't say deserves to be in a league below Punjabi, Binocular, Rock On Ruby or Jezki. You could argue they're better sure, I'd agree with some, but the divison is no weaker for the last 2 years than it was in those years?



I suppose, Buveur D'air has only been able to beat whats been put infront of him, he's unbeaten in two open 2 mile hurdle campaigns, this year we'll get to see him post a higher figure than he ever has before IMO (because of Samcro's inflated rating)

In terms of standard of opposition and numbers (runners and ratings) then his two champion hurdles are comparitively weak, if we go back even further it will only strengthen the case. Faugheens Champion hurdle was also weak.

 

[Kevloaf]

In terms of standard of opposition and numbers (runners and ratings) then his two champion hurdles are comparitively weak, if we go back even further it will only strengthen the case. Faugheens Champion hurdle was also weak.

That's kind of my point....

Even Faugheen winning was a weak year, we've had perhaps 1 strong renewal in the last 10 years, so I just think it's a bit unfair to beat BVD with that stick, Faugheen certainly didn't get the same bad press. It was more of a "well you can only beat what is in front of you"... which is how I feel Buveur D'air should be addressed...

I genuinly think he'll post his best figure this year

 

[Quevega]

That's kind of my point....

Even Faugheen winning was a weak year, we've had perhaps 1 strong renewal in the last 10 years, so I just think it's a bit unfair to beat BVD with that stick, Faugheen certainly didn't get the same bad press. It was more of a "well you can only beat what is in front of you"... which is how I feel Buveur D'air should be addressed...

I genuinly think he'll post his best figure this year

Yep, hopefully when he finishes placed behind Laurina :triumphant:

 

[Quevega]

I think based on timings and opposition then Rock on Ruby might come out top, a proper demonstration of economic galloping at speed.
Following year not quite so good and The mighty Fly sat a bit closer and was able to pounce.
I rank Jezki's win 1st as it had the supreme 2nd and third, reigning champion hurdler, ballymore winner and triumph winner (all from previous season)

Correction - Jezki's was fastest ever, for some reason got Rock's mixed up. I think Rock on Ruby's win was notable due to the sectionals being so solid with no let up. Remember timing it with a view to why Hurricane Fly was disadvantaged positionally.
And obviously may not have been at his best on the day, which is the most plausable reason for any given horse.

 

[Hurricane fly]

Obviously not guaranteed he would have won, but Ruby paid way too much respect and attention to Binocular and gave HF too much to do so, something I believe he admitted too.

As for BDAs form, I crab it as much as anyone and last years was weak if you were being really harsh about Melon he’s a horse that has won twice in his career and pushed the winner to within a neck.

 

[Folski]

This "bad bunch" that Buveur D'air beat first time round did include Footpad and Sceau Royal didn't it? Or do we not class them as decent level of horse at all now?

Altior's form gets franked by having BVD back in 3rd in his Supreme, but the other way around doesn't seem to get as much love.

I think both of those have improved for the extra year over hurdles and have probably grown into themselves, improved for a fence, etc. Fair point regarding Altior. I don't doubt that BD improved from the Supreme.

PLenty of people thought Yanworth had a better chance in that CH though, he went off fav. They were proven t obe wrong though.

Actual race course evidence has to trump what connections thought before the race.

Of course it does Kev, he's won 2 Champion Hurdles he's hardly useless. Scooby is implying Samcro is a dud because he fell in a race and was beat in his first race of the season, despite not having worked on grass and giving weight away to race fit rivals, trainers thinking the horses in front went too fast etc. I just think that is a very black and white view on the evidence and at the moment I have a grey view, he could well be right.

For me Melon was flattered by the winning distance last year for all he was hampered by Ruby and Faugheen and BD was impressive considering he hadn't a proper race for a year but he's going for 3 in row which is pretty tough to do (which Scooby has stated its tough to get to 4 festivals in a row), I don't think he's beat a proper horse yet, he hasn't beat one horse where I've gone he's different class. Samcro hasn't either but I was blown away by him at times last year. You can say Footpad & SR but surely Footpad is now a dud as he was beat on his first run as well out of novice company, he's lost his air of invincibility.

 

[boopa]

ROR and Overturn guaranteed stayers setting a strong gallop. Never came back.

Remember the Jezki one. MTOY pulled like a train most of the way. Incredible race.

 

[Kevloaf]

I think both of those have improved for the extra year over hurdles and have probably grown into themselves, improved for a fence, etc. Fair point regarding Altior. I don't doubt that BD improved from the Supreme.



Of course it does Kev, he's won 2 Champion Hurdles he's hardly useless. Scooby is implying Samcro is a dud because he fell in a race and was beat in his first race of the season, despite not having worked on grass and giving weight away to race fit rivals, trainers thinking the horses in front went too fast etc. I just think that is a very black and white view on the evidence and at the moment I have a grey view, he could well be right.

For me Melon was flattered by the winning distance last year for all he was hampered by Ruby and Faugheen and BD was impressive considering he hadn't a proper race for a year but he's going for 3 in row which is pretty tough to do (which Scooby has stated its tough to get to 4 festivals in a row), I don't think he's beat a proper horse yet, he hasn't beat one horse where I've gone he's different class. Samcro hasn't either but I was blown away by him at times last year. You can say Footpad & SR but surely Footpad is now a dud as he was beat on his first run as well out of novice company, he's lost his air of invincibility.

I'm not backing up what scooby has said about Samcro anywhere. I certainly haven't labelled Samcro a dud ever.

I was just pointing out that I feel like saying Buveur D'air has won weak renewals doesn't really have any relevance, they've been weak for at least 10 years too.

 

[Folski]

I'm not backing up what scooby has said about Samcro anywhere. I certainly haven't labelled Samcro a dud ever.

I was just pointing out that I feel like saying Buveur D'air has won weak renewals doesn't really have any relevance, they've been weak for at least 10 years too.

I know you haven't. I'm not knocking Scooby either he's very entitled to his view and he could well be shown to be spot on Saturday afternoon. All I'm really saying is there is about as much evidence to write off Samcro as there is to say BD isn't that great a Champion Hurder.

 

[Kevloaf]

I know you haven't. I'm not knocking Scooby either he's very entitled to his view and he could well be shown to be spot on Saturday afternoon. All I'm really saying is there is about as much evidence to write off Samcro as there is to say BD isn't that great a Champion Hurder.

Yeah fair enough, agree with that.

Do you think.....

If Samcro beats Buveur D'air, people will elevate him to being a superstar - "Beaten a 2x Champion Hurdler".

If he loses, Buveur D'air will "have beaten a hype horse, still beat nothing of note"

That's how I feel it'll go.... not my opinion, but I don't know what Buveur D'air would have to do to be given credit.

 

[Folski]

Yeah fair enough, agree with that.

Do you think.....

If Samcro beats Buveur D'air, people will elevate him to being a superstar - "Beaten a 2x Champion Hurdler".

If he loses, Buveur D'air will "have beaten a hype horse, still beat nothing of note"

That's how I feel it'll go.... not my opinion, but I don't know what Buveur D'air would have to do to be given credit.

It depends, Samcro has no excuses the weekend for me, if he is a superstar he simply has to win, as you would imagine everything is in his favour compared to BD. If he beats BD convincingly, I think he will get all the plaudits, if it's a narrow win you'd imagine BD would improve for the run. What I think a lot of people are forgetting too is Samcro was never asked for anything before, I'm sure he'd have learned a lot from his last run.

If BD wins and Samcro is a staying on well held 2nd I can see it going the way you state as a bubble burst and no real credit for BD.

 

[billymag]

I do have an interest in times and Samcro could still be a champion hurdle horse based on what he has achieved so far over hurdles from 5 completed runs. He certainly is against the big boys this Saturday and I cant wait to see if he can step up to the level required to put it up to BDA. Youd imagine Gordon has him as fit as he can on Saturday so there wont be any excuses from me if he comes up short, but on times he is still an exciting prospect. My big worry as Ive mentioned before is his hurdling technique, it hasnt been slick enough and im not sure he looks a natural in any of his races. Hopefully we get the match up this Saturdy.

 

[Chaser1980]

Am I totally nuts to be thinking about backing Vision Des Flos at 66s for the champion hurdle?

 

[Middle_Of_March]

Yeah fair enough, agree with that.

Do you think.....

If Samcro beats Buveur D'air, people will elevate him to being a superstar - "Beaten a 2x Champion Hurdler".

If he loses, Buveur D'air will "have beaten a hype horse, still beat nothing of note"

That's how I feel it'll go.... not my opinion, but I don't know what Buveur D'air would have to do to be given credit.

Samcro as a CH still seems strange to me. I’ve backed him for it but only because if Gordon thinks he is capable, who am I to go against. I do think, as I said from before last season started, he’s a superstar in the making. Though I did think it’d be JLT this year and Gold Cup in 2020.

If Buveur beats him, Summerville boy and VDF Saturday, fair play. It proves he’s very very good. He’s nowhere near the Faugheen that was unbeatable at his best but he’s a very worthy defending champ. I’d just love to see Samcro destroy them on Saturday though.

 

[doctorwu]

I think it's jut refreshing to see the top novices from the previous season willing to take BvD on.

I think it's probably taken NH a bit by surprise.

Agree. Lets hope Hendo doesn't pull BD out....

 

[doctorwu]

Interesting debate.
Im hoping Samcro turns out to be a star because racing always needs great horses. His only blemish came when falling(looking like the winner)at Punchestown. We can forgive him that. We'll have a much better idea of this division after the FF. Its also heartening to see a really good field for the FF.

 

[mayo]

Interesting debate.
Im hoping Samcro turns out to be a star because racing always needs great horses. His only blemish came when falling(looking like the winner)at Punchestown. We can forgive him that. We'll have a much better idea of this division after the FF. Its also heartening to see a really good field for the FF.

Down Royal airbrushed from history

Unless Samcro is very good on Saturday the novice chase markets will be getting a big shake up.

 

[jack1092]

It's a tricky one.

Faugheen was given some egg and spoon races to start life in open company as a hurdler- and even though he was a 4/9 shot at DR, he was facing a much trickier start than Faugheen ever did + now he is facing a 2x CH winner on his second start.


On RPRs Samcro ran to same level as Faugheen did in open company debut, obviously it's different as he lost and Faugheen did it very easily.

What if Samcro ran to a length of BDA? Hendo's quotes would suggest BDA will be needing the run, so it's possible it would still be viewed as a poor run, but he'd have achieved a fair bit i think...Would Elliot then believe he has enough left to work with for the CH or would he admit defeat?

They could be in a tricky position!

 

[Folski]

I think nothing has been made of the fact that it's probably the first time Samcro was asked for something serious and he probably didn't know his job. I expect he will have learned loads from his last run as well as coming on physically for it.