BBC Panorama

[ryanh97]

I get the sense tonight's panorama may cause a lot of conversation, so to save the general chat thread getting overrun, have made a separate one.

Mods, move or delete as you wish :adoration:

 

[Atlantic Viking]

'Freedom of information requests revealed that 4,000 former racehorses were slaughtered in Britain and Ireland since the beginning of 2019. Most, but not all, were trained in Ireland.'
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57881979

Racing is long overdue a serious kick up the arse to put it mildly, hopefully this helps starts such a process. Sadly i'm not at all convinced it's a sport that will ever take a serious look at itself, but we'll see.

 

[Faugheen_Machine]

'Freedom of information requests revealed that 4,000 former racehorses were slaughtered in Britain and Ireland since the beginning of 2019. Most, but not all, were trained in Ireland.'
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57881979

Racing is long overdue a serious kick up the arse to put it mildly, hopefully this helps starts such a process. Sadly i'm not at all convinced it's a sport that will ever take a serious look at itself, but we'll see.

It's going to be interesting viewing.

I think it would be impossible to re-home all ex racehorses so I'm not sure there's a viable alternative, unfortunately.

 

[Deleted member 4957]

From what I gather the programme is created by a combination of BBC journalists with an agenda and Animal Aid, it is extremely unlikely to provide a balanced view and will be yet another kick in the teeth the industry will spend many years defending itself from…

 

[Atlantic Viking]

Never in a million years is something with Animal Aid at the forefront going to be balanced, but if 4000+ are going to slaughterhouses in only a 2 year period, it's something the sport still needs to take a serious look at isn't it? There is some balance to offer to that, but not much.
I saw a vid from ATR last night where Matt Chapman makes a couple of good points, but mainly engages in whataboutery and deflection. The presenter opens with a few words basically rolling his eyes, as if Panorama are the problem for making such programmes and being nasty to racing. We're going to need better than that if we want a long term future for a sport that exists in a society that is slowly but surely heading in the opposite direction on how palatable such industries/pursuits are. In what other modern day sport is the death of 100's each year deemed acceptable as part of it?!
I love racing as we all do on here, we are the diehards and converted, so i'm acutely aware what an enormous shithouse I am because I know all about what goes on but choose to stick it at the back of my mind rather than walk away. I can try and use meat eating as an equivalence in some absurd attempt at making myself feel a bit better about it all, but ultimately I know it isn't comparable and i'm talking shite. I don't have to do all that with the other sports I follow, not in terms of death. (Many will do it with their attendance at next years World Cup mind, but that's for another time...). Wider society doesn't have to stick uncomfortable truths about sports it doesn't care for at the back of their mind, they can see the facts and decide they simply don't want any more of it, as they did with fox hunting.

It's always sat uncomfortably with me the way we worship certain horses, quite rightly, for greatness. The way we humanise them to an extent, build statues for them etc... but by the way, if they (they often being their siblings) aren't good enough or can't be rehomed, this is the fate that awaits...
The only thing I can think to compare it sensibly to is dogs. We are a nation of dog lovers, but how many get put down because they can't be rehomed? I dread to think, i'd bet on it being much more than the figures discussed in this documentary. But again that's just whataboutery, racing has a problem and it needs to find a way to do better. The more light, balanced or otherwise, shone on it the better it will be all round in the long-term. I think racing shoots itself in the foot bowing to the mob on things like the whip, I don't think the same can be applied on this one.

 

[Quevega]

I’ll wait and watch the program
but 4000 needs context adding or they can get fucked.
spouting numbers without context or comparison is just poor journalism. The article on bbc today had nothing so not expecting the program to either

 

[Cheltenham Novice Chase]

Interesting they didn’t mention the agents name.

 

[Atlantic Viking]

Think racing will probably feel it's just about got away with that tonight, was more a documentary on slaughterhouse practice and regulation than anything. Wasn't as hard hitting as I expected tbh. Although maybe i'm wrong, the fact they go to slaughterhouses may be a shock to the general public and cause a reaction. Be interesting to see but I suspect there'll be a few sighs of relief overall.

 

[Kevloaf]

Panorama is a weekly show isn't it?

Storm in a tea cup? Forgotten in a couple of weeks?

I hope I'm right... and that given everything else that's going on, the sport isn't in immediate danger. :chargrined:

 

[Eireman]

Lets be honest it was a load of utter shite. Before I say anything else I will start by saying that abattoir should be closed down immediately to protect against future cases of harming animals which given they have a history with we know they aren't going to clean up their act so close them down.

Now the documentary itself..........what a load of utter tripe it was. The point of this was how some horses are mistreated after they retire from racing at one specific abattoir. This was then implied to be a welfare issue for the entire horse racing industry to clean up their practises........ok but the BHA can do nothing not one single thing in regards to the practises at this abattoir because it isn't the BHA who regulate it but it's the "Food Standards agency" so surely if it was a welfare issue and the makers genuinely cared about the animals you would apply that pressure to the FSA to clean up their house to ensure against potential animal suffering in the future but they didn't do that, instead they tried to make out like this is a massive problem amongst the horse racing industry because they couldn't give a flying F about the welfare of the horses going through this abattoir but instead want to try to twist this and put it onto an industry who can do nothing about it.

Does that mean owners/trainers/agents who knowing sent injured horses against the rules on a long journey shouldn't be weeded out and barred from owning/trainer or dealing with animals in any way? No of course they should but the makers of this went into this documentary with a clear agenda from the start and all they could find was malpractice of one specific abattoir that is actually a food safety issue and not a sporting one then that shows that across the board 99.9% of horses in the UK and Ireland that race or retire are well cared for. I don't personally see the problem with racehorses being sold into the meat market who are fit for consumption. Humans eat meat and I think anyone saying a horse should not be eaten but a cow should is a hypocrite. In fact at least the racehorse will have lived a life of luxury before being sold for food consumption where 99% of other horses bred specifically to be sold for meat don't get near that same life before slaughter.

TLDR: The documentary was agenda driven nonsense and I came away from it feeling better about how racehorses are cared for than I did before it if all they could find within racings control was a couple of terrible owners/agents who should be driven from the sport.

 

[Deleted member 4957]

Lets be honest it was a load of utter shite.

Now the documentary itself..........what a load of utter tripe it was.

the makers of this went into this documentary with a clear agenda from the start

TLDR: The documentary was agenda driven nonsense

Pretty much exactly where I am.

30 mins of TV time has been filled by a journalist with an agenda, the show has been aired and they move on to their next planned destruction.
Where issues exist I’m all for review and rectification but attempting to create an industry wide problem from one operator with rogue practices that isn’t even regulated by the racing industry ?
Poor effort from the BBC….

 

[archie]

Lucinda Russell on Facebook:

'Tonight Panorama are going to report on a British abattoir which kills horses, allegedly many ex racehorses, including three originally trained by Gordon Elliot
Let's get things straight; this program concentrates on an abattoir with despicable practices where the horses are killed, sometimes in groups, with no apparent care for their welfare. This is appalling and should not happen.
The act of putting a horse to sleep, carried out correctly and humanely is not cruel. It happens with racehorses, pleasure horses, sports horses and indeed all pets, and I am sure that everyone reading this will have known the emotional devastation and loss felt after death, but it is our responsibility to make sure that the animal's final moments are stress free.
The reasons for ending a horses life are varied but as a trainer and owner we must all take a responsibility that it is carried out with the horses welfare as paramount. There is no place for cruelty.
At the end of a horses racing career we have a moral responsibility to be sure that the horse is best looked after til the end of their days.
In twenty six years training racehorses we have never put down a horse at the end of their career. Indeed social media today will carry many photographs and stories of ex racehorses and the respect, love and care bestowed on them.
Here we either permanent loan or sell our horses and it is the second scenario that carries most risk to the horse. While we filter prospective owners and place the horses in their best home we then lose control if sold on again and this is when our horses are most at risk.
At Lucinda Russell Racing we try to keep in touch with all owners and subsequent owners of our horses and will always take them back if we hear of problems.
At the end of the day it is about money. We are in the fortunate position that we can afford to take back any of our ex racehorses that, for whatever reason, are no longer safe in their home, and this is a responsibility that we feel strongly about.
There should be a safety net for all ex racehorses, perhaps the BHA and ROR can confirm and publicise their support for looking after the warriors who have played their part in our sport and all trainers and owners should reaffirm their responsibility for their horses.'

***

Most of the horses featured last night came from Ireland where racehorses tend to be viewed as working animals. Not in the BHA's power but a ban (or severe restrictions) on the import of live horses for euthanising is surely within the scope of the government.

 

[Atlantic Viking]

I don't personally see the problem with racehorses being sold into the meat market who are fit for consumption. Humans eat meat and I think anyone saying a horse should not be eaten but a cow should is a hypocrite. In fact at least the racehorse will have lived a life of luxury before being sold for food consumption where 99% of other horses bred specifically to be sold for meat don't get near that same life before slaughter.

I'm not trying to dig you out, it's a genuine question because it's interesting to hear the views from all quarters and i've waffled on at length about mine; do you feel the same about all racehorses? We all have our favourites for one reason or other and it's a highly unlikely scenario, but if for example it turned out that one of Altior, Sprinter Sacre, Douvan, Kauto Star etc... etc.... had been sold on for meat, would you have no problem with it?

Where i'm at is if a horse is bred for meat and then sold for meat, I as a beef/chicken/pork etc... eater am an enormous hypocrite for having an issue with horse meat just because I have a fondness for horses. Where horses are bred for racing, for a sport, but are then somewhere along the line sold for meat, that's where I have an issue and I don't believe that equates to being a hypocrite. We treat livestock as livestock, we all know the drill. You don't turn on ITV or any other broadcaster and hear the horses referred to as livestock, they are presented to the public as sports stars, as an animal that is owned and loved. It's just different and should be treated as such from beginning to the end, not just when convenient.

 

[Eireman]

I'm not trying to dig you out, it's a genuine question because it's interesting to hear the views from all quarters and i've waffled on at length about mine; do you feel the same about all racehorses? We all have our favourites for one reason or other and it's a highly unlikely scenario, but if for example it turned out that one of Altior, Sprinter Sacre, Douvan, Kauto Star etc... etc.... had been sold on for meat, would you have no problem with it?

In simple no I don't feel the same for all horses because like with anything my experience is relative to horses that have caused me joy, be it cheering them on because I have backed them, being able to appreciate the level of talent they have or horses that I have personally met to the point of say Envoi Allen who I have met alongside my children who was an utter pleasure in his calmness and demeanour. If anything ever happened to him I would think back to that day he stood happily in his stable and allowed my then 7 year old to feed him Polo mints. So if I found out he was sold on for meat then it would cause me great sadness because for personal reasons.
However with that said I am also self aware enough to know that procedure or laws should not be dictated and made by my own personal experience so I can distinguish between the two.

Where i'm at is if a horse is bred for meat and then sold for meat, I as a beef/chicken/pork etc... eater am an enormous hypocrite for having an issue with horse meat just because I have a fondness for horses. Where horses are bred for racing, for a sport, but are then somewhere along the line sold for meat, that's where I have an issue and I don't believe that equates to being a hypocrite. We treat livestock as livestock, we all know the drill. You don't turn on ITV or any other broadcaster and hear the horses referred to as livestock, they are presented to the public as sports stars, as an animal that is owned and loved. It's just different and should be treated as such from beginning to the end, not just when convenient.

I just don't agree with this tbh. Now I don't eat meat of any kind but I cannot see how if humans are going to consume horse meat then it isn't better to use a racehorse that's fit for consumption who have lived a relatively privileged life compared to some horses than it is to breed specific horses with the sole intention of using them for food. We breed livestock the way you described because the demand is there for these meat products. It comes back to my original paragraph. We as fans of the sport all love horses and if possible would choose they never be eaten but I am sure somewhere out there somebody says the same about cows.

 

[charlie]

The programme should have been called 'disgraceful abattoir practices'. Instead, the BCC took singular horrific events at one abattoir and attempted to stain the whole of racing. It didn't work, but questions do need to be answered. The sad thing about a horse like Vyta Du Roc, is if someone with a profile said his fate is sealed unless we come up with 20 grand to rehome him I reckon they'd have collected that in a day, without breaking stride. I certainly would have contributed. My hope is owners wake up to what's happening and put there money where there mouth is.

 

[Deleted member 4957]

The programme should have been called 'disgraceful abattoir practices'. Instead, the BCC took singular horrific events at one abattoir and attempted to stain the whole of racing. It didn't work, but questions do need to be answered. The sad thing about a horse like Vyta Du Roc, is if someone with a profile said his fate is sealed unless we come up with 20 grand to rehome him I reckon they'd have collected that in a day, without breaking stride. I certainly would have contributed. My hope is owners wake up to what's happening and put there money where there mouth is.

Yep, agree charlie.

And your second point is interesting, I don’t for one moment think the likes of Munir/Suede, Giggs, Elliott or Cromwell believe their horses end up in abattoirs, my guess is there are agents/consultants who look after that side of the business and whose behaviours aren’t interrogated or regulated enough.

Elliott is an easy target now, BBC and Animal Aid were very happy showing the photo multiple times to emphasise their point, I think this is something he simply has to get used to…

 

[Deleted member 4957]

I also meant to add that aside from the money the BHA contributes towards retired horse welfare if there was better understanding and advertising then as charlie suggests I think people would find plenty of backing.
Add a quid to every racecourse ticket or better still get betfair to cough up given their vast profits from the sport.

I think what scares people with retired horses are potentially horrific vets fees, if there was access to free/subsidised vets practices more people I’m sure would happily take them on.
I’d happily buy a field, build a stable block and have half a dozen….

 

[Lbur4288]

It was a difficult watch but as many have stated already - it shed more light on an horrific abattoir than the "dark side of horse racing" that the title suggested. For us racing fans it's fairly easy to separate how much the racing types played a roll in this but for the non-racing fans it'll just get people's backs up, particularly against Gordon Elliott who seemed to be the main target of this episode.

That said, it was sad to see Vyta du Rocs life ending the way it did, won me plenty over the years so it was a shock when I saw the horse.

Give it a few weeks and something different will be on the agenda.

 

[Quevega]

The programme was sensationalistic, and misleading. Or a load of bollocks, depending on where you come from.
Even if they had a point they struggled to make it.
Just stating facts and showing footage with little or no context, explanations or balance.

"The horse looks scared" - you don't fucking say.

They may as well have shown footage of vets putting dogs down every day, and called it the Dark side of walking dogs.
Not many animals go skipping into the Vets singing Oh what a lovely day.

And the whole, this horse used to be trained by someone famous and won this money and ran in this race, and now it's being put down sob story (without offering a solid reason why it was being put down, and why it had been sent to that particular abbatoir)

Did seem suspicious though, that most of the horses seemed to have been shipped in (allegedly) from Ireland.
And the travelling with an injury seemed a bit off, but like the rest of the programme it was not adequately covered. I assume you can travel with horses who have a leg injury, otherwise how do they get them home from the racecourses !. Fucking tele-porting.

 

[charlie]

The programme was sensationalistic, and misleading. Or a load of bollocks, depending on where you come from.
Even if they had a point they struggled to make it.
Just stating facts and showing footage with little or no context, explanations or balance.

"The horse looks scared" - you don't fucking say.

They may as well have shown footage of vets putting dogs down every day, and called it the Dark side of walking dogs.
Not many animals go skipping into the Vets singing Oh what a lovely day.

And the whole, this horse used to be trained by someone famous and won this money and ran in this race, and now it's being put down sob story (without offering a solid reason why it was being put down, and why it had been sent to that particular abbatoir)

Did seem suspicious though, that most of the horses seemed to have been shipped in (allegedly) from Ireland.
And the travelling with an injury seemed a bit off, but like the rest of the programme it was not adequately covered. I assume you can travel with horses who have a leg injury, otherwise how do they get them home from the racecourses !. Fucking tele-porting.

The programme was definitely sensationalistic and misleading (BBC Panorama 101), but it shone a light on issues re horse welfare that have to be taken very seriously.