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Age catches up with everything. Remember when i was 18 i could make love for England,Now its dont wake me when you've finished 🤣
 
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Quevega said:
I meant horses holding their form after age 9 or so, and being at their peak at age 7 or 8.
Don't really matter too much when they started jumping anything really.
Age catches up with them all.
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Of course age catches up eventually but it generally happens quicker to those who start earlier, some of the all time greats have held their form to 10/11 but the chances are they weren’t exposed to the rigours of NH training as 2yo.
There will always be exceptions of course…
 
My stepdaughter has a masters in equine science so, as you can imagine, we've talked about this quite a lot over the years.

Essentially, it's mostly down to the individual physiology. In human terms, think Michael Owen and Wayne Rooney who both started very young. Owen was essentially knackered by the time he was what, 27, but Rooney continued well into his thirties with only occasional fitness issues.

For NH thoroughbreds, while they generally stop growing at around 4, they are not considered physically mature until 5 or 6. By and large, softer ground is potentially liable to lead to soft tissue injuries but fast ground has a cumulative percussive effect on the joints which, as they get older can tend towards arthritis. Just like humans, the individual physiology will emphasise or lessen these tendencies but it's a reasonable hypothesis that every horse only has a certain amount of miles in its legs even though that number will vary substantially from horse to horse. Following on from that, it seems natural that potentially, the earlier a horse starts jumping the more pressure is being put on immature joints which in some cases will shorten the racing career but, in all fairness, that isn't always the case.

As a breeder, you're naturally keen to see your horses on the track as early as possible but, as an owner, I specifically try to avoid having my horses run when the word 'firm' appears in the going. They can't tell you if they have a small niggle which might be made worse by running.

I don't have a problem with loose schooling 2yos and, while some flat-breds might be suitable for breaking early in their 3yo year, I'd be much more inclined to look at 3yo stores in the spring/summer who, whenever they were broken, wouldn't see any serious training until they were 4.
 
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archie said:
My stepdaughter has a masters in equine science so, as you can imagine, we've talked about this quite a lot over the years.

Essentially, it's mostly down to the individual physiology. In human terms, think Michael Owen and Wayne Rooney who both started very young. Owen was essentially knackered by the time he was what, 27, but Rooney continued well into his thirties with only occasional fitness issues.

For NH thoroughbreds, while they generally stop growing at around 4, they are not considered physically mature until 5 or 6. By and large, softer ground is potentially liable to lead to soft tissue injuries but fast ground has a cumulative percussive effect on the joints which, as they get older can tend towards arthritis. Just like humans, the individual physiology will emphasise or lessen these tendencies but it's a reasonable hypothesis that every horse only has a certain amount of miles in its legs even though that number will vary substantially from horse to horse. Following on from that, it seems natural that potentially, the earlier a horse starts jumping the more pressure is being put on immature joints which in some cases will shorten the racing career but, in all fairness, that isn't always the case.

As a breeder, you're naturally keen to see your horses on the track as early as possible but, as an owner, I specifically try to avoid having my horses run when the word 'firm' appears in the going. They can't tell you if they have a small niggle which might be made worse by running.

I don't have a problem with loose schooling 2yos and, while some flat-breds might be suitable for breaking early in their 3yo year, I'd be much more inclined to look at 3yo stores in the spring/summer who, whenever they were broken, wouldn't see any serious training until they were 4.
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…..interesting analogy with human athletes, Archie, particularly two that I’m quite familiar with.

Owen much more dependent on speed than Rooney, it was the curse of the hamstring that caught up with him. Once they start to ping, the scar tissue means they’re bound to go again when under pressure and footballers tend to protect them, even subconsciously playing in 3rd gear. Same thing ended my footy days.

There was always a belief with Rooney that he developed great physicality so young his career would also lack longevity at top level. His is purely in family genes, I know them very well.

I suppose it just demonstrated that with humans, physiology is different for us all and maybe that’s the same with other animals. One size doesn’t fit all.
 
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I wanted to generate some debate and it seems to have done so. I do agree there is no one size fits all approach and some 4yos are more physically mature to cope with fences especially if coming from France like many do. Let's frame this question another way. Do you think connections of Majborough will be pleased with what he has achieved over fences? Is he fulfilling the potential he showed and would/could he have achieved more for another season hurdling?

My take is that while he may of been physically mature for his age, he wasn't mentally. He had just three runs over hurdles before going chasing and may of benefited for another season racing and competing at a high level. Compare this with Fakir D'Oudaries who had raced 10 times under rules including a couple of chases in France before getting off the mark over fences. Arguably the greatest chaser of the modern era to have gone chasing at 4yo, Kauto Star, had ran 10 times over hurdles in France with those 10 runs coming in the space of 14 months (6 runs at graded level).
 
DenmanSacre said:
I don’t think there’s a hard rule for it. Some horses will be physically and mentally ready for fences at 4 and others won’t. I think there’s a much better argument that running horses over hurdles as a juvenile is much better for their development than them running round in a PTP, running in bumpers or not being trained at all.
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I agree about there not being a hard rule for it, in fact I'd go as far as to say it's as much luck as anything else.

Wouldn't be bothered if they were over hurdles as a juvenile or a p2p fence either though.

Just off the top of my head, and there are probably loads of examples, but some high profile ones, which are easier to remember, Faugheen & Bob Olinger run in p2p's aged 4 and thrived as race horses, both running to high levels throughout their whole careers before retiring at 12 years of age, Bob was noted by @archie numerous times prior to his Ballymore win, that he came from a pretty fragile family as well, but it wasn't to stop him. I was also going to note Envoi Allen, who was racing until 12 at the highest level, despite being a 4 year old p2p winner, but unfortunately we lost him, but not through a bone or muscular injury, nor did his form drop as he got older.

I'd like a large enough sample size to confirm either way, but my own opinion is it doesn't matter a jot which field they come from, and it will boil very much down to the individual horses physical make up.
 
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Probably already been posted on here but Kaiser Ball has been sold by Costello's and is now at Skelton's.
 
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Anyone know when official entries are done for some of the lesser races at ascot? Likes of the Windsor castle or the chesham?

Entries for the biggest races have been announced weeks ago. Don't know if it's just standard entry dates for the rest of the races or whether it might be this week or something.
 
Windsor Castle 11/6
Chesham 12/6

Looks like 6 day entries.
 
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riccirich said:
Ah right, was hoping more bookies would price them up fairly soon but I doubt they will until entries. Thanks
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Are you thinking the same as me that Sun Goddess could be AOB's Chesham horse ?
 
Lobos said:
Are you thinking the same as me that Sun Goddess could be AOB's Chesham horse ?
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Not interested in any particular one really, have a few in mind who id be interested in seeing what price would be offered on them but doesn't look like that'll be happening anytime soon. Unibet only ones pricing up so will have to make do with trying to get 20 quid on with them before they halve the price.
 
20mm of Rain overnight at Epsom. More rain expected during this week some possibly heavy. Ground currently Good/Soft
 
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riccirich said:
Not interested in any particular one really, have a few in mind who id be interested in seeing what price would be offered on them but doesn't look like that'll be happening anytime soon. Unibet only ones pricing up so will have to make do with trying to get 20 quid on with them before they halve the price.
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Re Chesham...AOB uses the opener at Leopardstown for his Chesham runners.
He has 2 declared, Alpha and Ibeleiveicanfly who , as you say, have both been priced up by Unibet at 10/1 and 6/1.
 
More rain at Epsom. Looks like it's gone against the Derby Fav and possibly the Oaks fav too.
 
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Lobos said:
Re Chesham...AOB uses the opener at Leopardstown for his Chesham runners.
He has 2 declared, Alpha and Ibeleiveicanfly who , as you say, have both been priced up by Unibet at 10/1 and 6/1.
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Yeah I backed ibelieveicanfly when I saw moore was on him at 12/1 and 9/1. Kept getting cut every time I put on 20 quid 🤣
 
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riccirich said:
Yeah I backed ibelieveicanfly when I saw moore was on him at 12/1 and 9/1. Kept getting cut every time I put on 20 quid 🤣
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Might be worth having a Saver on Alpha in view of Ryan choosing the wrong one several times recently.
 
Lobos said:
Might be worth having a Saver on Alpha in view of Ryan choosing the wrong one several times recently.
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The odds arent good enough for me to be doing that unfortunately, very skimpy even when first priced up. Just gonna hope moore has chosen right. Bearing in mind that at some point aidans run in the race will end and both could be no good.
 
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