Champion Hurdle 2019

[Faugheen_Machine]

Willie had Hurricane Fly for 3 of them Quevega wins at the festival, I can guarantee if there was no mares' race we wouldn't have seen Quevega do what she did at all. Why would he have risked the mare in a champion hurdle when he had the fly fit for 3 of them.

I'm in favour of the mares races. I can't speak for certain but Archie has come out and said, how many great mares would we not have seen had it not been for these types of races? I suspect a lot would have gone down the breeding route.

I know she was to have her own excuses but it's not as if Apples Jade had it her way last season, it's becoming a lot more competitive and it's good for the mares and the sport.

How good was Quevega? Could she have won a Champion Hurdle? Punjabi won the Champion Hurdle in 2009 and I'd be fairly confident Quevega was better than Punjabi, even as a 5 year old.

It isn't a competitive race CoD, far from it. Short priced favourites have won 7 of the last 10 running, with Annie Power (1/2f) falling at the last and Apples Jade (1/2f) under performing in the race last season.

Kevin Blake's idea is brilliant and Cheltenham should seriously think about introducing it.

 

[Hurricane fly]

On the otherhand Apples Jade/Limini/VVM was arguably the race of the festival two years ago

 

[Kevloaf]

On the otherhand Apples Jade/Limini/VVM was arguably the race of the festival two years ago

To counter that.... without the Mares race, where would they have gone?

Stayers(AJ) / CH(Limini) / Ryanair(VVM)?

Competitive doesn't always mean better, it's a bit like when people bleat on about the Championship being the best league in the world because it's competitive, just clearly NOT TRUE.

They'd be compeitive with a 7lb claim in those races, may not win, but so what? Plenty of Mares races through the calender.

 

[ComplyOrDie]

The last 2 seasons have been more competitive and it will only become more competitive IMO. OK, so 2 trainers dominate currently (but they both seem to dominate the festival regardless of this race) though last season Alan King nearly done the unthinkable & Henderson has been close in recent years too.

Benie Des Dieux wouldn't have had a penalty last season, and the year before the only difference a penalty would have made could have meant Limini won, but still would have been Mullins and he still would have run VVM in it too.

I honestly believe they would skip the festival altogether if they didn't have the Mares' route or penalties were attached for being the best. You don't penalise Grade 1 horses who compete in the Champion Hurdle, so why Mares?

 

[ComplyOrDie]

To counter that.... without the Mares race, where would they have gone?

Stayers / CH / Ryanair?

Competitive doesn't always mean better, it's a bit like when people bleat on about the Championship being the best league in the world because it's competitive, just clearly NOT TRUE.

They wouldn't turn up. That's my honest opinion about it.

 

[Kevloaf]

They wouldn't turn up. That's my honest opinion about it.

So what do we need the race for?

Would they let them take their chance against the boys ever? If not, then just leave the 'competitive Mares races' to enjoy through the season...

If they are good enough for grade 1s, run them and make use of the 7lb claim they don't need!!!

 

[Kevloaf]

I honestly believe they would skip the festival altogether if they didn't have the Mares' route or penalties were attached for being the best. You don't penalise Grade 1 horses who compete in the Champion Hurdle, so why Mares?

BEcause girls can run against boys, boys can't run in the grade 1 Mares race

 

[Kevloaf]

I just think there should be a strong incentive for top class mares to run in the Championship races... however they do that.

Annie Power was a Champion Hurdler that (all but won) a Mares Hurdle... I know which one I enjoyed more as a racing fan.


Quevega was special as a training feat, not as a superb race mare. She was just the best of a bad bunch and she can't prove otherwise

 

[Hurricane fly]

If a competitive race like that isn’t if the best standard why does it matter where else they would have gone as surely they then would have got spanked?

As others have said the mares is only going to get better and better and already has more depth than say 5 years ago

 

[ComplyOrDie]

So what do we need the race for?

Would they let them take their chance against the boys ever? If not, then just leave the 'competitive Mares races' to enjoy through the season...

If they are good enough for grade 1s, run them and make use of the 7lb claim they don't need!!!

As Archie said, the mares' program was put in place to encourage more of them to run and not just be sent for breeding. They deserve their place. They provide every single horse you have ever watched/backed in your life.

7lb is not nowhere near enough for the majority of the them, you're not looking at the bigger picture, the best, like Annie Power, great, she gets 7lb and wins a weak Champion Hurdle, those other mares not a chance.

 

[ComplyOrDie]

BEcause girls can run against boys, boys can't run in the grade 1 Mares race

So it's OK for the boys to win consecutive races without penalties but not the mares?

 

[Faugheen_Machine]

The last 2 seasons have been more competitive and it will only become more competitive IMO.

Apples Jade was the 1/2f who clearly underperformed and the race was won by the second fav as a result. Not sure that means the race is getting more competitive.

 

[Hurricane fly]

I just think there should be a strong incentive for top class mares to run in the Championship races... however they do that.

Annie Power was a Champion Hurdler that (all but won) a Mares Hurdle... I know which one I enjoyed more as a racing fan.


Quevega was special as a training feat, not as a superb race mare. She was just the best of a bad bunch and she can't prove otherwise

I know you’re playing Devils Advocate but Quevegas 4 world hurdles at Punchestown day different. Beat Voler La Vedette a lot more cosily than Big Bucks did and then the next year dispatched Reve De Sivola by same distance but a lot easier than solwhit did.

Quevega vs Big Bucks 2010-2012 were undoubtedly potential classics but I equally always thought they should have taken B.B. across the sea one year

 

[Kevloaf]

So it's OK for the boys to win consecutive races without penalties but not the mares?

A mare wouldn't get penalties winning this race as it's am open championship event though?
Maybe I missed the point mate haha

To be fair I'd scrap the mares allowance though, they don't need it

 

[ComplyOrDie]

Apples Jade was the 1/2f who clearly underperformed and the race was won by the second fav as a result. Not sure that means the race is getting more competitive.

What's her price got to do with it? That's only based on market valuation not guaranteed running. She didn't run her race but she was beat plenty enough to suggest it could have been even more competitive had she actually been on form, but we won't know.

 

[Kevloaf]

I know you’re playing Devils Advocate but Quevegas 4 world hurdles at Punchestown day different. Beat Voler La Vedette a lot more cosily than Big Bucks did and then the next year dispatched Reve De Sivola by same distance but a lot easier than solwhit did.

Quevega vs Big Bucks 2010-2012 were undoubtedly potential classics but I equally always thought they should have taken B.B. across the sea one year

Yeah absolutely, I agree she was superb.

The main point being she may have been forced to take BB on and what a clash. If she didn't, then we wouldn't know any different anyway.

I don't think her 6 times would be half as celebrated if she didn't get me (and plenty others)out of jail on the Tuesday's haha

 

[ComplyOrDie]

A mare wouldn't get penalties winning this race as it's am open championship event though?
Maybe I missed the point mate haha

To be fair I'd scrap the mares allowance though, they don't need it

Sorry, that was with regards to Kevin Blake's idea about making it a grade 2 so grade 1 winning mares get a penalty, should have made that clear.

 

[Quevega]

I just think there should be a strong incentive for top class mares to run in the Championship races... however they do that.

Annie Power was a Champion Hurdler that (all but won) a Mares Hurdle... I know which one I enjoyed more as a racing fan.


Quevega was special as a training feat, not as a superb race mare. She was just the best of a bad bunch and she can't prove otherwise

Correct - the whole idea is not to get rid of mares races, just nudge the really good ones in against the boys. It just may help increase the spectacle and competition. I remember a year where we had Quevega odds on, The Fly odds on, and Big Bucks odds on.

More and more trainers are realising that a good mare is a valuable asset and can really rack up good prize money, I don't buy the go off to be a brood mare bullshit, studs are far more valuable and prolific.

I'll beg your pardon with the last comment, She was the greatest racehorse the festival has ever seen, and beat the boys at Punchestown regularly, she even ran Punjabi close as a fiver yr old over 2 miles after he won the champion hurdle.
She laughed at Voler la vedette who also regularly beat the boys.
And it's not her fault Willie got into the habit of leaving her off for a year, or that Ruby had Big Bucks to ride in the stayers.
I love her with all my heart.:highly_amused:

 

[Quevega]

The last 2 seasons have been more competitive and it will only become more competitive IMO. OK, so 2 trainers dominate currently (but they both seem to dominate the festival regardless of this race) though last season Alan King nearly done the unthinkable & Henderson has been close in recent years too.

Benie Des Dieux wouldn't have had a penalty last season, and the year before the only difference a penalty would have made could have meant Limini won, but still would have been Mullins and he still would have run VVM in it too.

I honestly believe they would skip the festival altogether if they didn't have the Mares' route or penalties were attached for being the best. You don't penalise Grade 1 horses who compete in the Champion Hurdle, so why Mares?

The whole grade 2 idea is perfect as if they have won a grade one v the boys then they can still run in the mares if they want, but with a penalty, this creates a better chance for the lesser mares to compete.
That's the same for any grade one winner who drops into a grade 2 race.

It would then also potentially nudge trainers and owners to go for the grade one races where they get the 7lb, as an alternative.

 

[Faugheen_Machine]

What's her price got to do with it? That's only based on market valuation not guaranteed running. She didn't run her race but she was beat plenty enough to suggest it could have been even more competitive had she actually been on form, but we won't know.

Market valuation is usually a decent indicator of whether the race is competitive or not.

It may be getting slightly more competitive (I'm not convinced) but a top class mare will always dominate this race, as Quevega did for 6 years on the trot.