General Chat

[Quevega]

I heard a comment earlier today that Paddy Power weren't going to pay out on winning bets for the Novice Handicap Chase being axed at Cheltenham until after the Cheltenham Festival in March 2021!

Sounds bizarre, like they dont believe the Jockey Club's decision OR think it could be changed?

Has anyone else heard anything, or been paid out by Paddy Power for their win? (or not).

I had 7pts on at 5/4 and have not been paid out as yet.
If that's true that they're not going to pay out until March, then it's a bit shitty.
It'll be longest running AP bet I've ever had.

[Saxon Warrior]

I had 7pts on at 5/4 and have not been paid out as yet.
If that's true that they're not going to pay out until March, then it's a bit shitty.
It'll be longest running AP bet I've ever had.

It does sound strange, and could lead to some pretty bad PR for what I should think is such a small stakes market.

I get the point that until the event happens (Northern Trust Nov Chase doesn’t take place, in this case) then why pay out, but it still seems an odd way to keep punters onside.

[Hurdles or chasing]

I had 7pts on at 5/4 and have not been paid out as yet.
If that's true that they're not going to pay out until March, then it's a bit shitty.
It'll be longest running AP bet I've ever had.

7 points Well played, It must have been you who was adamant that it would be the race to go and said it should have been odds on. I followed someone in and couldn't remember who it was.

[Quevega]

7 points Well played, It must have been you who was adamant that it would be the race to go and said it should have been odds on. I followed someone in and couldn't remember who it was.

There was definitely a discussion held on here.
Had a 1pt saver on Kim muir at 13/2 also

[Captain Chris]

Change the Ryanair to a Grade Two for novices and second season chasers. It draws too many good horses from the Champion Chase and Gold Cup. If it is a Gold Cup prep then it is not a championship race.

Put the mares hurdle and mares chase on the April mares card. The mares hurdle deprived the sport of Quevega v Big Buck's and drew Honeysuckle and BDD from last season's CH and SH respectively.

The Festival is supposed to be the de-facto (if not explicitly definitive) National Hunt championships. What other sport would cannibalise its marque events in such a fashion? It is like hosting the Ashes and CWC / Wimbledon and French Open / Champions League and World Cup simultaneously.

Glad that the Fred Winter wasn't chopped as the Triumph has become a much better standard of race for its presence.

Completely agree with moving the Mare's races out of the festival and having their own "championship day". Preferably at the start of Feb though so that it doesn't interfere with any of the spring festivals. With good airtime and prize money, I think it would have a better impact than being lost (and moaned about) during Cheltenham.

It's a shame to lose the novice handicap from a personal perspective as the handicaps are my best source of profit at the festival (didn't have a single winning bet on a grade 1 last year...). I'd rather have kept it, got rid of the handicap ceiling, but ban novices from entering the other handicaps. Without the facts to hand, so could be entirely wrong, but it seems that novices win a hugely disproportionate number of the handicaps during festival week, having been "cleverly campaigned" throughout the year. Turn the Martin Pipe into the novice handicap hurdle of the meeting to give the second grade novice hurdlers an option too. It would be nice to see older horses given their day in the sun.

Don't get me started on the Ryanair... Chop it completely and increase the profile of the Ascot Chase and the Melling Chase. They've got plenty of other options and could even try lumping a big weight in the plate if they don't fancy going CC or GC.

I'm the UK especially, they seem to be trying to avoid any potential clashes between top class horses by providing so many alternatives. That's all season long, not just at the festival. Ireland seems to have a much better set up to funnel horses towards the same race, creating exciting clashes.

[Istabraq]

Change the Ryanair to a Grade Two for novices and second season chasers.

Which is exactly what the Plate was back in the day.
I can’t recall why they opened the race up and turned it into a handicap but it would have happened 15+ years ago now.
I mentioned it shortly after last seasons festival but all the bunting and marketing on the Thursday was for the Ryanair, the race was even announced on PA as the feature race of the day, so Cheltenham either forgot the Championship Stayers Hurdle was on the card or they’re pushing the Ryanair, so sadly the race will not be changed/moved any time soon...

[archie]

Which is exactly what the Plate was back in the day.
I can’t recall why they opened the race up and turned it into a handicap but it would have happened 15+ years ago now.
I mentioned it shortly after last seasons festival but all the bunting and marketing on the Thursday was for the Ryanair, the race was even announced on PA as the feature race of the day, so Cheltenham either forgot the Championship Stayers Hurdle was on the card or they’re pushing the Ryanair, so sadly the race will not be changed/moved any time soon...

It's the Ryanair that evolved from the Cathcart (conditions race for novice and second season chasers) in 2005. I'm fairly sure that the Plate has always been a handicap, originally the Mildmay of Flete.

As for mares championship races, would opponents bin the 1000 Gns and the Oaks?

[Spectre]

As for mares championship races, would opponents bin the 1000 Gns and the Oaks?

Yes, for anything upwards of a selling hurdle on the Sunday at Newmarket

[archie]

Yes, for anything upwards of a selling hurdle on the Sunday at Newmarket

The Rowley Mile would definitely be improved by 4 flights of hurdles.

[Kautostar]

I like the Ryanair and marsh races I don’t see why horses can’t be middle distance champions. Not every horse is a straight 2 or 3 miler

[Kotkijet]

I wonder what the general consensus is amongst racing fans regarding mares' races at the festival because I often feel like there's an in-joke where I am out of the loop when reading press releases...

So here is an anonymous poll.

https://www.strawpoll.me/21068421

Completely agree with moving the Mare's races out of the festival and having their own "championship day". Preferably at the start of Feb though so that it doesn't interfere with any of the spring festivals. With good airtime and prize money, I think it would have a better impact than being lost (and moaned about) during Cheltenham.

Don't get me started on the Ryanair... Chop it completely and increase the profile of the Ascot Chase and the Melling Chase. They've got plenty of other options and could even try lumping a big weight in the plate if they don't fancy going CC or GC.

I'm the UK especially, they seem to be trying to avoid any potential clashes between top class horses by providing so many alternatives. That's all season long, not just at the festival. Ireland seems to have a much better set up to funnel horses towards the same race, creating exciting clashes.

Agree with almost everything. Think the Mares' championship day might attract more Irish runners in early April than in February and connections might be more willing to pit the best against the best after the Festival but as long as it's not at the festival at all then I will be happy.

Which is exactly what the Plate was back in the day.

As Archie says, the Cathcart... None of my jokes ever seem to land

As for mares championship races, would opponents bin the 1000 Gns and the Oaks?

Not at all. The 1000gns and the Oaks take place early in the season and are used to sort out the youngsters in their respective divisions. They do nothing to diminish the quality of the championship races such as the King George or Arc should one want to see a brilliant Derby winner take on a brilliant Oaks winner. If the Oaks was an open aged contest that directly competed with the KG or Arc then that would be a problem.

The issue is not mares' races. I personally think they are a fantastic initiative. However, the execution is abhorrent because hosting them at the same time as the open class championship races often spoils them.

I like the Ryanair and marsh races

Nothing personal as I have had this argument before... But this is the hill that I will die on. (I am not particularly fussed about the Golden Miller mind you).

Here is the damage caused by the Ryanair to the Champion Chase and the Gold Cup since 2008. Most of these horses probably would have started at odds of around 10/1 in the more established races and even if you suggested that none of them would have been winners, even one or two placed horses would have detracted from the overall quality.

2008
Old Vic - GC - staying on when second the previous year
Mossbank - GC - ran away with Munster National, staying on when second to Denman in the Lexus, sole Gigginstown runner

2009
Imperial Commander - GC - won the Gold Cup the following year - did not need to improve much from eight to nine
Voy Por Ustedes - CC - dual winner and runner up in 2008
Tidal Bay - CC - won 2008 Arkle by 13 lengths, second in Tingle Creek. Also GC - stayed the trip and rated higher than 10/1 shot Barbers Shop

2010
Tranquil Sea - CC - 121 in Graded 2m chases that season, CC had open market outside of Master Minded.
Voy Por Ustedes - CC - see above
Albertas Run and Barbers Shop - GC - larger than 10/1 but both had better prospects than the 12/1 Tricky Trickster

2011
Albertas Run - GC - dual festival winner with better chances than 9/1 shots Midnight Chase and Kempes
Kalahari King - CC - Arkle 2nd, Champion Chase 3rd, comes to life at festival

2012
Riverside Theatre - CC or GC - speedy novice who was runner up in a King George, impressive return in the Ascot Chase after a year off the track, would have been a live contender for either race in the pre-Ryanair days
Albertas Run - GC - getting on a bit but that year's GC was not the strongest - even Medermit would have been given a place chance
Somersby - CC - won Clarence House last time beating CC winner Finian's Rainbow. Highest rated UK horse in field - ended up finishing second in the 2014 and 2015 renewals in any case
Noble Prince - CC - 1222 in graded 2m chases that season

2013
Cue Card - CC or GC - Arkle runner up who won the Haldon Gold Cup by 26 lengths - would have been joint second fav with Sizing Europe in a one horse market, seven year old Cue Card was possibly too young for a Gold Cup but he would not have been lightly dismissed
First Lieutenant - GC - was only in the Ryanair because Gigginstown had Sir Des Champs in the Gold Cup. Would have been right near the top of the market

2014
Dynaste - GC - second in Lancashire Chase, injured when King George favourite, was favourite to beat 1¾l GC fourth Silviniaco Conti next time at Aintree
Hidden Cyclone - CC - coming in off two consecutive seconds in two mile Grade Ones, fell when favourite for Punchestown Champion Chase next time.
Al Ferof - CC or GC - Supreme Novices winner would have been better fancied in a Sprinter Sacre free field than 7/2 shot Captain Conan, wouldn't be longer than 10/1 shot Tirolo D'Alene in the Gold Cup either.
Boston Bob - GC - another case of connections splitting horses - held every chance when falling in the RSA - ended up winning the Punchestown Gold Cup the next month
Benefficient - CC - Won Dial-a-Bet chase last time

2015
Uxizandre - CC - winner of Shloer Chase - probably would have been longer odds due to his being out of form which is a reflection of the quality of this race
Don Cossack - GC - won the next season's Gold Cup but would still have been vying for favouritism even in the highly competitive 2015 edition

2016
Vautour - CC or GC - would have been strongly fancied for either
Valseur Lido - GC - looked all over the winner in the Irish Gold Cup
Road To Riches - GC - third in that very race the previous year

2017
Un Des Sceaux - CC - already beat the winner twice, no reason to suspect he why he would not have made it three
Empire Of Dirt - GC - easy winner of Troytown and keeping on when narrowly beaten by Sizing John in Irish Gold Cup

2018
Un Des Sceaux - CC - see above
Cue Card - GC - would have been in Gold Cup but for Native River, would not have been an outsider

2019
Frodon - GC - won Cotswold Chase,
Road To Respect - GC - fourth in 2018, three wins and four places over three miles in Grade One company
Monalee - GC - keeping on second in both Spa and RSA novices'
Un De Sceaux - CC - see above
Footpad - CC - won four Grade One novices at two miles - including Arkle - by combined forty-two lengths

2020
Min - CC - Literally described by Bryony Frost as a Champion Chase horse that spoiled the race for Frodon
Saint Calvados - CC - Literally described by Bryony Frost as a Champion Chase horse that spoiled the race for Frodon
A Plus Tard - CC - Literally described by Bryony Frost as a Champion Chase horse that spoiled the race for Frodon

I don’t see why horses can’t be middle distance champions. Not every horse is a straight 2 or 3 miler

There is already ample opportunity in the Aintree Hurdle and Melling Chase.

Last Autumn, I compiled a list of the 422 horses who have placed in the first three in all weight for age renewals Ascot Chase, Ascot Hurdle, Hatton's Grace, Punchestown Chase, Aintree Hurdle and Melling Chase since the 1983/84 season. I have even thrown in placed horses from the Black and White as well as the Cleeve Hurdle from when it was a twenty furlong race (which was downgraded from Grade One, presumably because Kates Charm and Classified were not championship standard).



With the possible exception of Cyrname, I do not believe that any of these horses fits the following criteria;-

a) Champion standard who would beat every other horse in training over twenty furlongs

and

b) A twenty furlong specialist whose form would dip to the point it would no longer be competitive in the best two or three mile races.

[archie]

The Champion Chase was first run in 1959 so there's an argument that 2 miles isn't a traditional championship distance for chases.

[Kautostar]

.....but Aintree is muck and Cheltenham is for champions.

[Quevega]

[Hurdles or chasing]

Anybody know the biggest Anti Post winner someone put up on here?

Latest Exhibition was some shout and very close last year at 66s EW. Apologies but I cant remember who it was.

Also anyone care to share the biggest bet they cashed out that went on to win?

I've cashed out the winner of the bumper the last 2 years at 33s and 25s. I was also very close to cashing out Sir Gerhard this year when someone said he was injured which ended up NOT being true. So here's hoping

Someone surely cashed the Envoi A Samcro double after xmas