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  • Completely agree AV, we should never be afraid of intelligent conversation and debate surrounding animal welfare.

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    • Originally posted by Atlantic Viking View Post

      Lets be honest, I absolutely love horse racing, my life increasingly revolves around it these days, but it's definitely something that needs talking about properly because not only is so much of what happens just wrong (it's not difficult to find other exposes here and abroad of what happens to thoroughbreds deemed surplus to requirements, it's no secret, but the sport has done a superb job of making people think they all see out their days frolicking in fields and meadows), pretending it isn't happening risks the future of the sport if we don't continue to push for better, because it leaves it wide open, which is why you end up the focus of Panorama exposes.

      Brings us back to many of the conversations happening during the whole Elliot picture-gate i.e. racehorses as sports stars, or racehorses as simply livestock/commodities and that people outside rural communities apparently just don't understand. In my opinion they are the former, most people are happy to talk of them as the former when they win championship/group races, when they make fortunes at stud etc... we can't treat the overwhelming majority that make up the also-rans as the latter just because it's convenient and saves money. Well, we can, but nobody should come crying if society decides in the coming decades that the sport is no longer palatable, a situation that really isn't all that difficult to envisage.
      Nail on the head for me.

      Comment


      • I have often wondered how long it will be seen as acceptable to geld a horse. It seems to me horses are often gelded to make their mind focus on racing rather than other things. It often puzzles me why a flat horse is rarely gelded whereas a National Hunt horse is. Obviously I understand why flat horses aren’t because of the potential stud fees but that doesn’t explain why almost all national hunt horses are when you take into account that there are many sub top grade flat horses who likely won’t make it to stud which remain full horses and they still seem to be able to focus on their racing, in the main. Do horses become more fertile when they become 4+ or is simply trying to stable such a high volume or horses and mares to difficult handle without gelding them? My questions should have probably gone in the ‘stupid questions’ thread.

        Comment


        • There's not much difference between the morals of gelding a colt and neutering a dog. It makes them more tractable and reduces the risk of health issues, eg prostate cancer in dogs.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Cheltenham Novice Chase View Post
            I have often wondered how long it will be seen as acceptable to geld a horse. It seems to me horses are often gelded to make their mind focus on racing rather than other things. It often puzzles me why a flat horse is rarely gelded whereas a National Hunt horse is. Obviously I understand why flat horses aren’t because of the potential stud fees but that doesn’t explain why almost all national hunt horses are when you take into account that there are many sub top grade flat horses who likely won’t make it to stud which remain full horses and they still seem to be able to focus on their racing, in the main. Do horses become more fertile when they become 4+ or is simply trying to stable such a high volume or horses and mares to difficult handle without gelding them? My questions should have probably gone in the ‘stupid questions’ thread.
            Is it a practical thing though.
            as a 50yr old man I’d have concerns jumping privets without any shorts on.
            never mind the neighbours - who’d call the police if I was jumping hedges naked.
            maybe national hunt stallions could wear speedos rather than getting their balls chopped

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Quevega View Post

              Is it a practical thing though.
              as a 50yr old man I’d have concerns jumping privets without any shorts on.
              never mind the neighbours - who’d call the police if I was jumping hedges naked.
              maybe national hunt stallions could wear speedos rather than getting their balls chopped
              This is the content i'm really here for. Cor blimey!

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Quevega View Post

                Is it a practical thing though.
                as a 50yr old man I’d have concerns jumping privets without any shorts on.
                never mind the neighbours - who’d call the police if I was jumping hedges naked.
                maybe national hunt stallions could wear speedos rather than getting their balls chopped
                The BHA could then sell owners different coloured speedos so the horse and the jockey wear matching clothes. Nice. I like it.

                Comment


                • Panorama tonight:
                  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57881979

                  Comment


                  • sounds like it will be grim viewing

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Atlantic Viking View Post

                      Lets be honest, I absolutely love horse racing, my life increasingly revolves around it these days, but it's definitely something that needs talking about properly because not only is so much of what happens just wrong (it's not difficult to find other exposes here and abroad of what happens to thoroughbreds deemed surplus to requirements, it's no secret, but the sport has done a superb job of making people think they all see out their days frolicking in fields and meadows), pretending it isn't happening risks the future of the sport if we don't continue to push for better, because it leaves it wide open, which is why you end up the focus of Panorama exposes.

                      Brings us back to many of the conversations happening during the whole Elliot picture-gate i.e. racehorses as sports stars, or racehorses as simply livestock/commodities and that people outside rural communities apparently just don't understand. In my opinion they are the former, most people are happy to talk of them as the former when they win championship/group races, when they make fortunes at stud etc... we can't treat the overwhelming majority that make up the also-rans as the latter just because it's convenient and saves money. Well, we can, but nobody should come crying if society decides in the coming decades that the sport is no longer palatable, a situation that really isn't all that difficult to envisage.
                      I concur AV.

                      I've had a post brewing for a while for this thread that I've never got round to. But imo jumps racing is under an existential threat and is just sleepwalking into oblivion.

                      We all love Cheltenham, but it being the be all and end all is hollowing out the day to day product. Then we have this weird thing where whenever there's a welfare issue the sport circles the wagons and tells people to F off. For ordinary people this just reinforces negative views.

                      Then further is the commercial realities -I know covid has impacted, but look at how budget some of the festival sponsorships are now. You sponsor something cos you want to bask in the reflected glory, and increasingly brands think there isn't any.

                      "If you don't like what's being said, change the conversation" Don Draper

                      Racing, jumps especially, needs a radical new comms approach, stringent rules on welfare to ensure what we tell ourselves is true and an iron fist to punish trainers that don't exact those standards.

                      When I've voiced this in the past IRL, someone called me a "crybaby". Well don't come crying to me when the whole edifice comes down in 10-15 years

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by robith View Post

                        I concur AV.

                        I've had a post brewing for a while for this thread that I've never got round to. But imo jumps racing is under an existential threat and is just sleepwalking into oblivion.

                        We all love Cheltenham, but it being the be all and end all is hollowing out the day to day product. Then we have this weird thing where whenever there's a welfare issue the sport circles the wagons and tells people to F off. For ordinary people this just reinforces negative views.

                        Then further is the commercial realities -I know covid has impacted, but look at how budget some of the festival sponsorships are now. You sponsor something cos you want to bask in the reflected glory, and increasingly brands think there isn't any.

                        "If you don't like what's being said, change the conversation" Don Draper

                        Racing, jumps especially, needs a radical new comms approach, stringent rules on welfare to ensure what we tell ourselves is true and an iron fist to punish trainers that don't exact those standards.

                        When I've voiced this in the past IRL, someone called me a "crybaby". Well don't come crying to me when the whole edifice comes down in 10-15 years
                        And i concur with this

                        Comment


                        • Re the last couple of posts..

                          Would you actually trust the head honchos involved in jumps or in wider racing to do anything about it?

                          Is it not a bit of a closed shop and more about who you know in order to be involved in these racing authorities? Feel free to correct me if I am wrong about that but it has always looked that way to me.

                          If it is how I've described it, then how would any real change in welfare possibly be enforced when it's not always the best candidate that would be placed into a position to make the changes required?

                          No doubt there'll be lip service paid to welfare after the programme airs but I'm sceptical regards any meaningful change, would be happy to be surprised though.

                          I appreciate it is not an easy task to police the treatment of every horse involved in UK and Irish racing but it's a sport and an industry employing a significant amount of people, it should act responsibly to its most important assets.

                          EDIT - Apologies, just saw there was a designated thread added for this, will refrain from adding any more on the topic in the general chat
                          Last edited by That Horse; 19 July 2021, 01:51 PM.

                          Comment


                          • If they reduce the amount of horses in training then that is almost the same cull anyways. Race horses are bred to be race horses not pets. Bit like the veggies who don't want anyone to eat meat. Those poor animals will never be born to enjoy even a limited amount of life.

                            Comment


                            • 2 days before the schools break up and I cannot wait.

                              Been so busy for the last few months, 6 weeks of 'working' 4 hour days to come starting on Thursday....


                              Might even get around to posting something useful ... but probably not

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Lobos View Post
                                If they reduce the amount of horses in training then that is almost the same cull anyways. Race horses are bred to be race horses not pets. Bit like the veggies who don't want anyone to eat meat. Those poor animals will never be born to enjoy even a limited amount of life.
                                I entirely agree with this point. Animal Rights groups, whilst well meaning, need to better understand the corollary of their arguments. If you remove a purpose of a horse there will exist fewer horses. Thus the more purposes you remove, and let’s face it I’m sure they’re also opposed to other sports involving horses too such as Polo and Equestrian, the fewer horse we exist again. If a horse has no purpose at all, horses will cease to exist. So Animal Rights groups are almost indirectly advocating for the extinction of horses. That seems an odd position to take.

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