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  • I think his ideal trip probably is 20f but a horse of his class and the way he races could see him get the GC trip. Look at Kauto, Sizing John and A Plus Tard this year. They would of all had stamina doubts the season before. He might of been keen going to post but I’d say that was a one off as he’s usually asleep and races with no keenness. That racing style will give him every chance of getting the trip and with the class he oozes it will take a serious performance to beat him.
    I’m not rushing to back him in either just yet. Hopefully know more in a few weeks.

    Comment


    • I think the debate with Envoi now is how keen he is racing, if you continue to race that keen he won't get the trip
      Jack had planned to ride him wide but given how lit up he got he had to tuck him in
      Unless he learns to relax whether he won or lost the Marsh he wouldn't get the Gold Cup trip

      Comment


      • Originally posted by DenmanSacre View Post
        I'd be of the opinion that for the very best horses, trip is essentially meaningless. They'll win over 2m or they'll win over 3 and a half miles. They way he has been talked about, everyone close to him and the wider Irish horseracing community think he is a freak and a potential once in a generation horse. They've talked about the Gold Cup for him since his bumper days.

        When you get a horse like that - Kauto Star, Desert Orchid etc - they are effective over all trips. Recently we've had A Plus Tard, Sizing John etc who have proven to be effective over the minimum trip and the Gold Cup trip.

        You've also had Gold Cup winners running over 2 miles as a novice chaser and stepping up. Sizing John, Best Mate, Kicking King, Long Run are some of the most recent ones.

        I'd have no worries at all that he would stay. His biggest worry for the Gold Cup is that Monkfish also looks a freak.
        My thoughts are very similar, and the only reason I can see Envoi ending up in the Ryanair, is similar to why Allaho ended up in the Ryanair.
        I really fancied Allaho for both races, and still think he would do well in a Gold cup.
        They never really raced him with any intent until the festival this year. And his lack lustre runs meant he ended up on the B team.
        Obviously he cannot go that gallop over the Gold cup trip, but class is class and he's now the highest rated horse in training I'd expect.

        I think Envoi could follow a similar path. Mainly because the division in Ireland is decent. And the 2 best are in his stable.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Crolwey113 View Post
          I think the debate with Envoi now is how keen he is racing, if you continue to race that keen he won't get the trip
          Jack had planned to ride him wide but given how lit up he got he had to tuck him in
          Unless he learns to relax whether he won or lost the Marsh he wouldn't get the Gold Cup trip
          He's been foot perfect and chilled all his life, including 2 festival wins and has more 1's next to his name than I care to type, and your calling into question how keen he is and not getting trips after lasting less than 4 fences after a thoroughly uncharacteristic error in the Marsh? Thats bordering on ridiculous to me, and I'm being polite with the word 'bordering'
          Last edited by charlie; 24 March 2021, 07:47 PM.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by FinalFurlong91 View Post

            Not sure I follow?

            Why would people think him falling means he won't stay?

            He couldve won on the snaff by 10 lengths and be 2/1 fav for the gold cup and he'd still have stamina doubts because he's unproven over anything further than 2 and a half miles

            Even his P2P wasnt 3 miles
            Playing devils advocate here but neither did Sizing John at the time and look how that turned out.

            Agree with others, see absolutely no reason to change targets because of a fall.

            If he doesn’t prove to be good enough then yes plans may change imo.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by charlie View Post

              He's been foot perfect and chilled all his life, including 2 festival wins and has more 1's next to his name than I care to type, and your calling into question how keen he is and not getting trips after lasting less than 4 fences after a thoroughly uncharacteristic error in the Marsh? Thats bordering on ridiculous to me, and I'm being polite with the word 'bordering'
              he was uncharacteristically keen

              If that carries on then he won't have a prayer in staying the gold cup trip

              If it was just a blip then there's probably nothing to worry about

              Guess we will find out next time he races which will hopefully be at Fairyhouse or Aintree since he didn't get very far in the Marsh

              Comment


              • Originally posted by FinalFurlong91 View Post

                he was uncharacteristically keen

                If that carries on then he won't have a prayer in staying the gold cup trip

                If it was just a blip then there's probably nothing to worry about

                Guess we will find out next time he races which will hopefully be at Fairyhouse or Aintree since he didn't get very far in the Marsh
                He was keen at Fairyhouse for his Royal Bond pre-race. He's got his quirks.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by charlie View Post

                  He's been foot perfect and chilled all his life, including 2 festival wins and has more 1's next to his name than I care to type, and your calling into question how keen he is and not getting trips after lasting less than 4 fences after a thoroughly uncharacteristic error in the Marsh? Thats bordering on ridiculous to me, and I'm being polite with the word 'bordering'
                  Kind of missing my point - he got lit up and went keen at Cheltenham if he does that he won't get the trip (Gold Cup) - he hasn't raced over that distance yet.
                  I'm not saying anything about previous races , if he carries on like he did in the Marsh on the way to post, before the race and how he ran he clearly wouldn't stay 3 miles I think everyone will agree on.
                  Calling how keen he was again in the Marsh I didn't mention any other races, you can't just say the Marsh is a once off and lets put a line through it

                  How he goes in the next race or two go will determine where he goes next season , all im saying is there is nothing concrete to say he is a gold cup horse as of yet irrelevant of whether he won or lost last week especially given the speed he has shown to win a bumper, royal bond etc. You can't say a horse will stay a gold cup trip until you see them do it.

                  Comment


                  • I didn't post it at the time because it was 4th hand info, but in his Cheltenham update issued Sun 14th March, Mark Howard said he heard from Tony Mullins in a preview that Mullins had heard from Cromwell that Envoi had not settled well in HDB yard.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Crolwey113 View Post

                      Kind of missing my point - he got lit up and went keen at Cheltenham if he does that he won't get the trip (Gold Cup) - he hasn't raced over that distance yet.
                      I'm not saying anything about previous races , if he carries on like he did in the Marsh on the way to post, before the race and how he ran he clearly wouldn't stay 3 miles I think everyone will agree on.
                      Calling how keen he was again in the Marsh I didn't mention any other races, you can't just say the Marsh is a once off and lets put a line through it

                      How he goes in the next race or two go will determine where he goes next season , all im saying is there is nothing concrete to say he is a gold cup horse as of yet irrelevant of whether he won or lost last week especially given the speed he has shown to win a bumper, royal bond etc. You can't say a horse will stay a gold cup trip until you see them do it.
                      Im not missing anything. You are taking one uncharacteristic error out of context and dismissing every trait that makes him a perfect Gold Cup horse , to decide he's too keen to stay. Nonsense IMO

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Pendil View Post
                        I didn't post it at the time because it was 4th hand info, but in his Cheltenham update issued Sun 14th March, Mark Howard said he heard from Tony Mullins in a preview that Mullins had heard from Cromwell that Envoi had not settled well in HDB yard.
                        Yeah there was a quote pre Cheltenham, most likely on here that I read, Paul carberry had said he heard the same from Cromwell.

                        Before Cheltenham I thought Envoi was the best novice chaser and I wouldn’t let one uncharacteristic fall change that.

                        Comment


                        • Just a heads up - if you haven't bought cheltenham tickets for 2022 then probably best to buy them now. Demand is huge and the FOMO plus covid has seen their sales go through the roof compared to normal years.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by charlie View Post
                            Just a heads up - if you haven't bought cheltenham tickets for 2022 then probably best to buy them now. Demand is huge and the FOMO plus covid has seen their sales go through the roof compared to normal years.
                            All 20/21 memberships automatically transfer to 21/22 too and as there’s still talk of potential social distancing continuing into the future plus there’s no guarantee Cheltenham returns to 65k crowds for 2022, demand is likely to massively outstrip supply...

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Istabraq View Post

                              All 20/21 memberships automatically transfer to 21/22 too and as there’s still talk of potential social distancing continuing into the future plus there’s no guarantee Cheltenham returns to 65k crowds for 2022, demand is likely to massively outstrip supply...
                              I’d be devastated if Cheltenham doesn’t happen as normal next year. Everyone will be vaccinated by then so should be fine

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by charlie View Post

                                I’d be devastated if Cheltenham doesn’t happen as normal next year. Everyone will be vaccinated by then so should be fine
                                Yeah, it sounds like they are seriously considering a vaccine pass idea which is great news.
                                Not so much for those that are anti-vaccine though. We can wave at them from the gates though

                                Met with my accountant recently and he's refused the jab

                                He said, "I don't see why I should put a foreign body into me", "I'm young fit and healthy and people like me are not in danger"

                                I said, "you're 5 foot 7 and 15 stone, and in your early 50's, you daft cunt"

                                Sometimes we give people to much respect and assume they are intelligent when they're actually fucking stupid.



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