Why Are We Doing It?

[Eggs]

....nothing too scientific, it’s truly enjoyable entertainment for me.

[Ballyfitz]

Interest - Focusing on the festival keeps my interest up for 8 months or so - and after the festival I’m usually glad for a break from studying! I don’t really have any interest in the flat. During lockdown having this to focus on has probably kept me sane.

Discipline - I find having the focus on the festival makes it a lot easier to be more disciplined throughout the year and resist the temptation of casino games etc... (although I’m still not perfect in this regard ). I’m doing well with the roll-ups this year but in terms of the discipline angle they probably haven’t helped as every other possible event becomes more of a temptation!

Retirement - Over the last couple of years I’ve taken a much keener interest in ensuring that I’m financially able to retire well before my late 60’s. A significant chunk of any extra profit will go towards the pot.

Travel - Can’t wait to get back out there and any money made would obviously help. As well as international travel I love getting to different race meetings around the country (and abroad occasionally). Racing wise - I’d love to be able to get back to the DRF in 2022.

[Skysthelimit]

A great question that I’ve asked myself a few times.

For me this all started when I would go along to the festival and my mates would turn up holding 20/1 vouchers on horses that I’d just backed at 5/1 and I knew I was missing out on something. I probably now spend more time doing this than them.

I’m a very analytical person and I enjoy the challenge of trying to solve the 28 different puzzles that are set in March each year. It’s also satisfying to take a view on something and to be proved right, sometimes!

The financial side is important and the festival usually pays for a family summer holiday with any money left over being used to over pay the mortgage. I’m too sensible.

Each year, I just start with a new bank and build this up until the festival. As I use the exchanges to trade some of my bets I tend to need a large bank and it’s a good way of saving as well.

As others have said the hardest part now is simply getting on at the prices I’d like. I currently don’t have access to B365 and Skybet accounts and for me these are the two best accounts to have. I’m lucky that where I live has all the high street bookies but have to make an effort to go and it can still be difficult getting on.

[Spectre]

it's really interesting to see the different motivations and what we want or even expect out of it.

There are a few more things that are worth mentioning for me. In addition to a really good family holiday, what I take out pays for my Membership and all my associated Festival costs each year. The second part is not insignificant as we and the group I go with do it properly. The restaurant bills each night alone can be eye-popping. We find Cheltenham during the week too hectic now so we stay near Stratford these days, and we pay for someone to drive us for the week. Plus we spend a bloody fortune during the day and the rest of the evening making sure we do the whole think in style.

I'm not saying this to show off. I've been doing it for a long time now, and it took a few years to build a ringfenced pot of money that isn't going anywhere that could genuinely withstand a couple of bad Festivals. It's big enough now to provide a nice lump sum to the family if something were to ever happen, and I'm pretty proud that I've had the discipline to build what I have. One thing I would say though is its not a race. It took me 7 or 8 years to build up a pot that was big enough to do it properly, and all I've done is add to it since then. To the point that I suspect most would be quite surprised how much I turnover each year just on the Festival, particularly on the exchange. With my method, having sufficient cash to trade large sums on the exchange is the key. Getting to that stage took a long while. Almost twenty years now.

I guess my point is that it's better not to run before you can walk. I've made that mistake in the past. I also have very few bets outside of the Festival each year. I'm not a day to day, or even a week to week gambler. I have been in the past, but these days I largely restrict it to having a bet if I go racing, and enjoy the big Festivals where you know most horses are genuinely trying. I lkie the form study aspect, and I don't have that motivation day to day. Outside of that it's either a bet based on information received, or something very specific that I like on my trackers. I can go whole months without having a bet, other than my antepost Festival bets.

Reading the responses so far, it's really good to see that at the heart of what we do is our love of racing. It doesn't matter whether it's Ray who just does it for the crack, Ryan and Danny who do it for enjoyment but have a discipline about their approach, or CoD and Scooby who have specific reasons and end games and a real focus and drive to make a significant profit, it still seems to matter to us all that we do it successfully, rather than as mug punter, so there's an underlying disciplined approach to varying degrees.

I also think it's also good to talk about it. Either because you're proud of what you're doing, how your going about it, and why you're doing it, or for a bit of clarity of mind with what you can or want to achieve. The important thing though is doing it in a controlled way, so we don't get in to deep, or with amounts that either are unmanageable, or are detrimental to us or our families. It's easy to get carried away to try and make it happen too quickly. Hearing about what others do and how they go about it gives us all something to empathise with and learn from. FJ is our outlet to discuss races, but it should also be our outlet to discuss our approaches. It helps to make us feel better in what can be quite a lonely pursuit. Let's face it, how many people in our every day lives understand what we're doing, how we go about it, and why we do it? Having this place as an outlet is I suspect more important to us all than we realise. and discussing this kind of stuff can be as important as discussing the races/racing itself.

It's interesting to see Scooby's response having gone pro, and OTL's response who's considering it. Because that can be the loneliest pursuit of all. I came close to going pro about 15 years ago, but having played around with it and setting myself up while juggling a job, I found I was falling out of love with the sport. I also started to feel a pressure for results that I'd never had before, and made decisions that I never would have usually done. I was heavily involved in a racing forum as my outlet, and that dried up too, which was probably the worst part. I just didn't have the time to contribute properly anymore, and missed the interaction.

We're all built differently though, so for Scooby specifically, have you found it's changed how you feel about racing, and do you feel the added pressure, or have you been able to take it in your stride so far? If so, what challenges have you still faced? It would be really interesting to hear about your experience so far. You also mention how hard it is keeping accounts open. Do you play the other side on the exchange? That's certainly helped me to keep accounts open, because I lay a significant number of bets off for profit that are obviously in my accounts as losers. I'll never get closed on the exchange which is where my big volume is. Although I've still lost a few accounts or been restricted along the way when I've had big wins, my family have been quite helpful in replacing them so far. They do get 5% for their troubles though!

[Spectre]

Above all I like the analysis and the chance to solve a puzzle

Yes me too. It's probably the most significant part of it for me aside from my general love of National Hunt racing.

[Spectre]

I have been obsessed with Cheltenham since 1999. In the early days I'd save all year just so I had a pot to gamble with during the week.

During the last 10 years I've started doing almost all of my Cheltenham betting ante post. The first year I attempted it I'd lost 42% of my bank to non runners , it was disastrous but I still made a profit so it was enough to convince me to keep going.

That first line was pretty much me FM. I could have written that line almost word for word.

The second point about non-runners is really important for anyone setting out seriously with antepost bets this year. Take the injuries and non-runners on the chin. If you've been smart enough it shouldn't matter. Press on, treat yourself, and leave yourself with a bigger pot for next year, and then go again. Don't get too greedy and go in too deep and put yourself under any financial pressure though. This isn't a race, and if you're smart you'll build something more than worthwhile, but if you're greedy you'll get your fingers burnt.

[Spectre]

I do it because it's one of the addiction's I enjoy.

Like many others I enjoy the build up and discussion, and the working it all out as much as the races themselves.
I don't get over excited when I win and don't get too down when I lose, so mentally I'm well equipped. I worry about the people that do.

Financially (at 49) I'm fortunate to not have many commitments, as my daughter has moved out and earns more than me already.
I'm also perfectly happy with a simple life and do not have the kind of materialistic mind that makes people crave more than what they really need.
I think it's called Drive and Ambition
I worked out that's the fast track to disappointment and unhappiness for 99% of people a long time ago.

The small company I own and run, requires about 2 hours a day (4 days a week) of my time.
So, as a house husband with a catering degree in Home Economics, I can spend hours a day on the horses.

I have had a five figure Bank on and off for the last few years and have not really had to fund this for several years, although every now and then I will take funds out (usually after Cheltenham & Aintree) and inject money in, when I get a bad run (usually mid summer).


I probably spend as much time as some professionals, but would never take it up seriously as I simply do not have the discipline as I bet on far too many races, due to having the time to do it and I also lack the Balls and psychology (to back myself).

I'm generally risk averse, having worked in financial investments all my life, I prefer my clients to make between 5-10% per year and any that want to double their money in a year are shown the door. When you try to win big, you increase the chances of losing Big. That's not for me, as I enjoy this so much I would not want to lose my bank and have to use the surplus income I have, which is going into Pension funds at the moment.

My average unit stake is less than 0.02% of my Bank, and I will probably only stake around 30-50% of My Bank on Cheltenham.
Sadly my turnover due to the numerous bets I make is over 6 figures consistently now. Which is quite frankly ridiculous.

I'd say anyone starting out should copy and paste your post Q. It's precisely that mindset that's got me to where I am. Setting aside the day to day betting, we're very similar in our approach, and in fact our state and stage of life. Well perhaps I'm 5 or 6 years further on, and I'm not in to midget porn...............

[ryanh97]

I've found this thread very refreshing so far. When I've looked at people's diaries I've assumed that everyone takes it very seriously and at times I've felt like I've been a bit muggy and need to take it more seriously. Seeing a fair few people on here say it's mainly for the fun and the hobby, then any money is a bonus is very very refreshing for me.

[Scooby91]

it's really interesting to see the different motivations and what we want or even expect out of it.

There are a few more things that are worth mentioning for me. In addition to a really good family holiday, what I take out pays for my Membership and all my associated Festival costs each year. The second part is not insignificant as we and the group I go with do it properly. The restaurant bills each night alone can be eye-popping. We find Cheltenham during the week too hectic now so we stay near Stratford these days, and we pay for someone to drive us for the week. Plus we spend a bloody fortune during the day and the rest of the evening making sure we do the whole think in style.

I'm not saying this to show off. I've been doing it for a long time now, and it took a few years to build a ringfenced pot of money that isn't going anywhere that could genuinely withstand a couple of bad Festivals. It's big enough now to provide a nice lump sum to the family if something were to ever happen, and I'm pretty proud that I've had the discipline to build what I have. One thing I would say though is its not a race. It took me 7 or 8 years to build up a pot that was big enough to do it properly, and all I've done is add to it since then. To the point that I suspect most would be quite surprised how much I turnover each year just on the Festival, particularly on the exchange. With my method, having sufficient cash to trade large sums on the exchange is the key. Getting to that stage took a long while. Almost twenty years now.

I guess my point is that it's better not to run before you can walk. I've made that mistake in the past. I also have very few bets outside of the Festival each year. I'm not a day to day, or even a week to week gambler. I have been in the past, but these days I largely restrict it to having a bet if I go racing, and enjoy the big Festivals where you know most horses are genuinely trying. I lkie the form study aspect, and I don't have that motivation day to day. Outside of that it's either a bet based on information received, or something very specific that I like on my trackers. I can go whole months without having a bet, other than my antepost Festival bets.

Reading the responses so far, it's really good to see that at the heart of what we do is our love of racing. It doesn't matter whether it's Ray who just does it for the crack, Ryan and Danny who do it for enjoyment but have a discipline about their approach, or CoD and Scooby who have specific reasons and end games and a real focus and drive to make a significant profit, it still seems to matter to us all that we do it successfully, rather than as mug punter, so there's an underlying disciplined approach to varying degrees.

I also think it's also good to talk about it. Either because you're proud of what you're doing, how your going about it, and why you're doing it, or for a bit of clarity of mind with what you can or want to achieve. The important thing though is doing it in a controlled way, so we don't get in to deep, or with amounts that either are unmanageable, or are detrimental to us or our families. It's easy to get carried away to try and make it happen too quickly. Hearing about what others do and who they go about it gives us all something to empathise with and learn from. FJ is our outlet to discuss races, bit it should also be our outlet to discuss our approaches. It helps to make us feel better in what can be quite a lonely pursuit. Let's face it, how many people in our every day lives understand what we're doing, how we go about it, and why we do it? Having this place as an outlet is I suspect more important to us all than we realise. and discussing this king of stuff can be as important as discussing the races/racing itself.

It's interesting to see Scooby's response having gone pro, and OTL's response who's considering it. Because that can be the loneliest pursuit of all. I came close to going pro about 15 years ago, but having played around with it and setting myself up while juggling a job I found I was falling out of love with the sport. I also started to feel a pressure for results that I'd never had before, and made decisions that I never would have usually done. I was heavily involved in a racing forum as my outlet, and that dried up too, which was probably the worst part. I just didn't have the time to contribute properly anymore, and missed the interaction.

We're all built differently though, so for Scooby specifically, have you found it's changed how you feel about racing, and do you feel the added pressure, or have you been able to take it in your stride so far? If so, what challenges have you still faced? It would be really interesting to hear about your experience so far. You also mention how hard it is keeping accounts open. Do you play the other side on the exchange? That's certainly helped me to keep accounts open, because I lay a significant number of bets off for profit that are obviously in my accounts as losers, and you never get closed on the exchange where my big volume is. Although I've still lost a few accounts or been restricted along the way when I've had big wins, my family have been quite helpful in replacing them so far. They do get 5% for their troubles though!

It hasn't changed the way I feel about racing, though I'm very selective and often feel the need to put out atleast 1 selection every day, when I wouldn't usually bet every single day, and would have more no bet days.
Some times the cards are awful, However i feel inclined to want to put something up on them days, to try to give value for money, so to speak. I still dont know the best way to go about that.

The 1 thing that annoys me is, is I have all the work done early, videos done, my own prices ready, all selections wrote out, and them pp go and price the irish card up 1st, which inevitably they are bang on, everyone copies, and the price I know I would have got elsewhere, is now a myth, and I have spent 12 to 14 hours with little to show for it. However I still enjoy doing all the work and the anticipation, for when one of mine can be priced all wrong, for example Indiana Jones who i'd been waiting for, for months and opened up at 16/1 for his maiden hurdle. There the times that make it worthwhile.

ofcourse I can have bad runs, when your putting out bets every day its inevitable, I'm personally very relaxed and completely look at the long term picture. Where as I'm somewhat slightly worried about the people who are thinking very short term, but all you can do is block that out and carry on as I normally would and continue to be profitable long term.

My mrs has 2 online accounts, 1 very recently opened. But they are literally saved for what would potentially be 1 big hit. 99% of my bets bets are through the betting terminals in shop. I will have the full set of all new personal accounts in 2 years, as 3 years ago I decided to freeze all mine for 5 years, thinking other accounts I had made available may last out until then. So I have that to look forward to.

All in all I get paid to do what I enjoy doing, it has taken me many years to get to that point, I think most would be very happy to turn their hobby into a business which allows them to spend their days doing the thing they love. I'm very thankful for that, and ultimately I have put myself in that spot, through hard work and results. Its certainly not an overnight thing, you have to invest heavily in yourself and put the work in, and continue to do so, in the good days and the bad. Sometimes the bad days you will notice something that creates a good day in the future, so its important to stay switched on.

[Nortons who]

To add a bit of context to my own situation, for many years I successfully followed and adapted the Clive Holt Fine Form betting system, with variable staking to return a set amount. When bookmakers removed betting tax my percentage net profit increased marginally year on year but over time I found very few longer priced winners and disliked lumping onto short priced favourites where the majority of my winners seemed to be coming from. My turnover was pretty ludicrous in reality for such meagre profit but I got to know the form and the horses, having decided by then to focus only on National Hunt racing.

So I changed direction completely and started looking at Ante Post markets and the Cheltenham Festival in particular because some of the race markets in those days formed at least a few months before the Festival. By then I was already attending the Gold Cup so became drawn to the AP markets for the GC, Stayers Hurdle (used to be run on the Friday) and the Truimph Hurdle.

When Betfair was born I took a healthy interest in trading the Gold Cup, since in practice that is the only Chetenham market which in my opinion has sufficient depth and volatility to trade more than 6 months out.

Maybe surprisingly but the only serious horse racing bets I have placed over the last 20 years have been on the Chelteham Festival, which means that I focus on those 4 days probably more than most. Its possibly an unhealthy fixation insofar as many much better horse racing betting propositions outside of the Cheltenham Festival go astray but that's the way it is for me now and I enjoy living the Festival for a full 12 months, rather than just the 4 days.

So why do I do it ?

As an interest and a hobby, which also helps to keep the brain active. I retired two years ago, so have much more time on my hands now for studying the form. Any profits I make are reinvested the following year, usually starting on the Saturday morning after the Gold Cup. My stakes / turnover are massively lower than they used to be 30 years ago because my motivations now are very different to back then, when it was all about making as much profit as I could.

The Cheltenham Festival for me is one of the best sporting occasions of the year, which I enjoy far more now than I used to because in the first few years it seemed unfathomable with far too many runners per race and no real idea which to choose. But now by devoting extensive time and effort in Ante Post bettiing, I feel as though I almost know some of the horses, jockeys and trainers personally.

[Spectre]

That sounds very level-headed Scooby. Given what you describe it's not without frustration, but well thought out and properly planned. I genuinely admire you for doing what you're doing and the results you're getting.

However good people think they are, and that they'd back themselves to do the same, it takes a very specific kind of personality and discipline to make it work. I reckon it's a fine line between success and failure, and you're easily the right side of the line.

I really like the fact that you have a mind to line up the gamechanger in the future though. I think it has to be there for all of us somewhere. But you clearly think about both the day to day and the future in a very disciplined way. Mentality and discipline is so important, and equally so as the skill of picking winners.

I genuinely admire you for what you've done, and the success you're having. It can be a lonely pursuit sometimes, but you're making it pay, and you have the support of your family which is so important. Don't be a stranger though. It's good to see you posting.

[Bigfish]

Well its one, for the money and two for the show.My sporting and gambling life has been a full one and a constant throughout the 55 years of ups and downs.I wouldnt change any of it and its something I can still get pleasure from at my age.
Ive been betting since I was 5yo.Learning from my Dad my uncles.I was a runner in our manor and took envelopes to the local Laddies and got sixpence, which I put on the best pick.
I won 10 bob on a Lester Piggott ride, Sky Blue and got into it big time.I was a degenerate gamblor by my teens.
Ive won and lost hundreds of thousands but have been very lucky and never had to be bossed by another man.I've made my own way and never had to really work for a living. Theres some funny stories to be told and I often reminisce.
I keep accounts open by using family and lose alot on them by letting them play casino. So far only B365 have closed one.
I miss the old days and buzz of the bookies ,I grew up in them . Some of the memories and faces stay with me,such fun times.
Ive had some bad runs of bad luck too and my love of the game has nearly cost my marriage and health.. I thank God that Ive an understanding wife.
So now Im a semi retired ,at 57 now 60yo full time drunk and without a care and just doing it for fun. Long may it continue. Happy days lads and Be Lucky.

[Kevloaf]

Enjoyed reading these. My little piece ...

"I’m curious though what you guys do with any winnings, and how you control how much you invest antepost? And do you have an endgame, or something specific you’re trying to achieve?"

I've always had an addictive personality and it's not going to surprise anyone here for me to admit I'm addicted to this forum and by proxy, ante-post betting. I love it, I have never calculated how many hours a day/week/year I spend on here/looking at the oddschecker markets/my spreadsheets. I always have said, that even if I made a loss, I'd break that down by how many hours enjoyment I've had and think that was still worthwhile.

In reality, given how much things have escalated in the last 10 years for me in terms of staking, that may not be true anymore. If I had a losing year, I think it'd knock me back. Fortunately, I think there is a big edge to be had ante post for Cheltenham and ante-post punting isn't dead as FM says!

Cheltenham ante-post is a significant percentage and boost to my betting records. The ROI will never be huge because I play it quite safely, I am not really a hail-mary kind of punter. I've become loads more selective week-to-week, I used to back a horse in every race I was watching and now some Saturdays I'd only back one or two.

I have considered 'kicking on' again, but I would need 6 figures for me to have the bank roll needed at the ROI I have to mean I wouldn't need to work, so at the moment I have no plans to do anything other than carry on at the level I'm at.

I've been fortunate (and invested a lot of time and effort!) to pay for an engagement ring, half our wedding, our honeymoon and the deposit for our first home with returns from Cheltenham Festivals. Will be landscaping the garden and getting an all-singing, all-dancing hot tub for it in March this year. What I could do, is keep the money in a pot as my betting bank, which would be more sensible long-term however, but I'm too "easy come, easy go" in real life and the thought of having a big pot of money sat there when I haven't got a hot tub doesn't sit right

The end game is to retire early and just play at the horses for pocket money when the mortgage is paid off. At the moment that is when I'm 57, and I'm 33 next Friday. Anything I can do to reduce that age of 57 will be done, but it's very achievable at the moment.

[Middle_Of_March]

Good thread this. Nice to see a more personal side to people. These threads such as this, the ‘I’m struggling thread’ etc are as important to the board imo as the actual horse racing threads.

As for me.. I finish university in May so will hopefully have some more money behind me from Cheltenham when going into my first job in the industry I’ll be qualified in (Sports Coaching).

I also must admit that I like spending a bit of my winnings from Cheltenham, maybe a third or a quarter if it’s a good year, by investing into a new racing greyhound or another long term project. One day that’ll be a horse.

[ryanh97]

I'm too "easy come, easy go" in real life and the thought of having a big pot of money sat there when I haven't got a hot tub doesn't sit right

Hear hear Kev.

*Adds a hot tub to his garden plan*