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Stupid Questions

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  • Stupid Questions

    A thread for people to post any question about the game that baffles them.

    Not sure if Cheltenham section is the right one but it gets the most traffic.

    “I’ve never figured out why horses tend to go PTP, then bumpers (Flat Racing), hurdles before some end up back over fences?

    Im at a loss to understand that sequence.”

    Thanks for the responses so far, but they haven’t explained why horses start off in Point to Points?

    if trainers are keen to protect horses by starting them in bumpers and then progress to hurdles before chasing - that progression is logical.
    Then starting over fences (albeit slightly smaller I think) in PtP totally breaks that logical sequence.

  • #2
    As this is a stupid questions thread I'll kick this off :-

    What is the difference between 'OR' and 'RPR' and more specifically how are they achieved ?

    Hope that isn't too stupid !!!

    Comment


    • #3
      OR is the Official Rating given by the BHA Handicapper

      RPR is Racing Post Rating, I lm also pretty sure this does not take into consideration the weight a horse was carrying. E.g if Altior conceded 10lbs to Defi Du Seuil and beat him by 1 length he might be assist 170 and DDS would have run to 159 (1 length and 10lbs equalling 11 OR difference). The RPR however would like show 169 for DDS.

      My understanding of it anyway in simplified terms

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Joleg View Post
        As this is a stupid questions thread I'll kick this off :-

        What is the difference between 'OR' and 'RPR' and more specifically how are they achieved ?

        Hope that isn't too stupid !!!
        OR is 'official rating' - given by the BHA (handicapper)

        RPR is 'Racing Post Ratings' - given by Racing Posts independant team.

        Timeform also have their own figures, TFF....


        How they are achieved will be explained by somebody else better than I will..... but essentially, its just creating a measurement to gauge one horses ability by how far it beat/or loses to another horse.

        They usually try and find the horse who has 'run his race' and use that... so if a horse comes 3rd, and seems to have run to about it's level, they'll use his rating. So say that's 150, they'll leave that where it is..... if a horse finishes 2L ahead of that horse, they'll rate him 152. It relies on lots of accurate data, but is essentially just down to peoples opinions but with a set of guidelines to try and keep them consistent. That is why people (like us on here) will dispute OR's, and say it's too high, and it's also what we look for in handicaps, when you think a horse is better than the literal rating it has.

        In a handicap, a horse carries weight directly linked to it's handicap mark.....so essentially if the two horses I mentioned above, (150 and 152) met in a handicap, 152 would carry 2lbs more than horse 150..... and they should be finishing together.



        I hope that helps
        Last edited by Kevloaf; 4 December 2020, 05:51 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          RPRs are very useful to look back and see best runs a horse has made

          One thing you can look out for in handicaps is where a horse has an OR well below some of its best RPRs.....and if there is a possible reason it might improve this time and run near a previous best (ground, course form, nee headgear, etc)

          Great way to find good outsiders in handicaps

          Fat Jockey Patron (est. Jan 2021)

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Hurricane fly View Post
            OR is the Official Rating given by the BHA Handicapper

            RPR is Racing Post Rating, I lm also pretty sure this does not take into consideration the weight a horse was carrying. E.g if Altior conceded 10lbs to Defi Du Seuil and beat him by 1 length he might be assist 170 and DDS would have run to 159 (1 length and 10lbs equalling 11 OR difference). The RPR however would like show 169 for DDS.

            My understanding of it anyway in simplified terms
            Correction on that HF RPR for DDS would show 159

            Comment


            • #7
              My understanding was they didn’t pay attention to weights

              is that wrong?

              Comment


              • #8
                I can tell already this will be a fantastic thread.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Kevloaf View Post

                  OR is 'official rating' - given by the BHA (handicapper)

                  RPR is 'Racing Post Ratings' - given by Racing Posts independant team.

                  Timeform also have their own figures, TFF....


                  How they are achieved will be explained by somebody else better than I will..... but essentially, its just creating a measurement to gauge one horses ability by how far it beat/or loses to another horse.

                  They usually try and find the horse who has 'run his race' and use that... so if a horse comes 3rd, and seems to have run to about it's level, they'll use his rating. So say that's 150, they'll leave that where it is..... if a horse finishes 2L ahead of that horse, they'll rate him 152. It relies on lots of accurate data, but is essentially just down to peoples opinions but with a set of guidelines to try and keep them consistent. That is why people (like us on here) will dispute OR's, and say it's too high, and it's also what we look for in handicaps, when you think a horse is better than the literal rating it has.

                  In a handicap, a horse carries weight directly linked to it's handicap mark.....so essentially if the two horses I mentioned above, (150 and 152) met in a handicap, 152 would carry 2lbs more than horse 150..... and they should be finishing together.



                  I hope that helps
                  In this instance would they be using an 'OR' or a 'RPR' ?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    What a great thread!

                    My question: are there any independent bodies regulating/reviewing the performance/consistency of the handicapper? For example, Solo is up and down like a fucking yoyo

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Hurricane fly View Post
                      My understanding was they didn’t pay attention to weights

                      is that wrong?
                      The OR is what sets the weight for handicaps......official rating

                      RPR are ratings net of weight.....so for example if a horse ran last time to 160 RPR and another ran to 164.....but now both of the same weight.....if they both run to the same rating as last time the 164 should win


                      Fat Jockey Patron (est. Jan 2021)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by charlie View Post
                        What a great thread!

                        My question: are there any independent bodies regulating/reviewing the performance/consistency of the handicapper? For example, Solo is up and down like a fucking yoyo
                        I don’t believe there is

                        However, the UK and Irish handicappers are separate.....hence why Irish horses are re-assessed for Cheltenham to run under UK regs
                        Fat Jockey Patron (est. Jan 2021)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by TigerRolllllll View Post

                          I don’t believe there is

                          However, the UK and Irish handicappers are separate.....hence why Irish horses are re-assessed for Cheltenham to run under UK regs
                          There should be IMO, the issue will always be knowledge. I think the Irish should review the English independently once the season is over and vice versa. Just an idea

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by charlie View Post
                            What a great thread!

                            My question: are there any independent bodies regulating/reviewing the performance/consistency of the handicapper? For example, Solo is up and down like a fucking yoyo
                            Not that i am aware of but any qualms with hcap marks can be appealed direct to the Bha who passes it onto the relevant handicapper(there are several all covering different areas) If that doesn't result in change there is a tree system of handicappers-team leaders and finally a senior head of hcapping who can assess the case. If they still are not happy with the ruling they can go the an indirect hcap appeals panel who act as a middle man to settle the issue.

                            Regarding Solo it's clear as day they dropped a rare massive bollock so to speak, bar visuals everything else that you could asses(Time)/(rivals not running to literal form) it was a silly mark. Hardly a YOYO thou as after Chelt it's clear they needed to rectify this and dropped him, again after the Elite and will continue to do so until competitive.

                            I've queried things in the past and about why certain horses don't get dropped, a lot of the time horses who appear on the up and then don't perform for a couple of runs, they leave the mark as opposed to drop it as they argue horses on the up need to show continuous halt in progression before being awarded more lenient marks which is fair enough in the grand scheme of it.
                            Last edited by Outlaw; 4 December 2020, 07:17 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by charlie View Post

                              There should be IMO, the issue will always be knowledge. I think the Irish should review the English independently once the season is over and vice versa. Just an idea
                              There is an appeal process.....hardly ever used

                              But think it was Dame De Compagnie that JP went to tribunal on over just 2 pounds and won .....hope I have right horse.......it worked
                              Fat Jockey Patron (est. Jan 2021)

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