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  1. #541
    Professional Fat Jockey jack1092's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The King Pimm View Post
    You get the same arguments in all sports. Joe Calzaghe career was always hampered and dampened by trash talk from pundits claiming he was not a great or legend because the opposition was not as strong as decades previous but you can only beat what’s in front of you like Joe did, he beat every top middle weight he could. Altior beat everything he came across until recently. I don’t know how his times compared to other top top 2 milers but if it was fantasy horse racing and a fully tuned and fit Altior at his best met Sprinter, Douvan, Masterminded etc at Cheltenham I’d back Altior. I think his tactics in some of the races have been wrong and I’m sure he could have won some of his races by 20 lengths plus
    Sprinter at his pomp was a fair bit better than Altior IMO. Altior still up there as a great.

  2. #542
    Professional Fat Jockey Saxon Warrior's Avatar
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    Top Official Ratings for the two horses were

    Altior 175
    Sprinter Sacre 188

    So at their best Altior would need a stone less than SS to win that battle, unless Altior has been keeping a stone in hand all this time, and Sprinter Sacre had nothing in hand when he posted his best figures.

    Sprinter Sacre’s top rated performance was probably his 19 length Champion Chase win, beating the prior year winner Sizing Europe (who was rated 177 when he won the year before). The Racing Post quote of the performance included the phrase “never off the bridle” for SS.

    The nearest to SS over 2 miles in the last twenty has been Masterminded at 186. I don’t think Altior comes close to those two at their best.
    Last edited by Saxon Warrior; 12-14-2019 at 11:47 PM.

  3. #543
    Fat Jockey (ridden out claim) The King Pimm's Avatar
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    I’m of the belief Altior has been plotting to keep that stone in hand for the new Legends CC race on the 5th day of the Cheltenham Festival 2021 when all the greats of the 2 mile hall of fame are rolled out to put this debate to bed once and for all and failing that they’ll meet in my new grade 1 superstar handicap which will replace the Gold Cup which will see Altior bottom weight!!

    Based on ratings I’ll pipe down, I didn’t know there was such a big difference between Altior and Sprinter on top ratings. That’s put my argument to bed unless Altior performs a miracle in March

  4. #544
    Fat Jockey (ridden out claim) TCH29's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamptonfox View Post
    Top Official Ratings for the two horses were

    Altior 175
    Sprinter Sacre 188

    So at their best Altior would need a stone less than SS to win that battle, unless Altior has been keeping a stone in hand all this time, and Sprinter Sacre had nothing in hand when he posted his best figures.

    Sprinter Sacre’s top rated performance was probably his 19 length Champion Chase win, beating the prior year winner Sizing Europe (who was rated 177 when he won the year before). The Racing Post quote of the performance included the phrase “never off the bridle” for SS.

    The nearest to SS over 2 miles in the last twenty has been Masterminded at 186. I don’t think Altior comes close to those two at their best.
    Very good analysis, but it works off the basis that the handicapper’s assessment is a) correct and b) comparable across different generations of horses when all comparable marks are not there.

    I think a peak Sprinter would beat a peak Altior, but not by far. Altior’s CC win just under two years ago in 2018 was in my opinion hugely underrated by the handicapper: 5-8lbs underrated IMO. He beat Min by 7 lengths, who has beaten mid 160s horses by similar distances, in horrible conditions that did not suit him at all. The RPR was 183, I think. That is much fairer and probably represents a fairer gap.

    Altior is still a great though. 19 successive wins and his grade 1 record ensure that. Bad mouthing his achievements is just bizarre, in my opinion. You’re basically bad mouthing the sport.

    And it is worth remember jockeys like Barry and Ruby who were around across both horses’ generations think Altior is a “great”.

    Strangely, I actually think Altior would have reached a higher OR and garnered more respect if he’d stayed a hurdler. Hendo said he is still the quickest horse he has, inc BvD. And he beat him in the Supreme. I think he’d have won 3 successive Champion Hurdles, and odds on, with today’s Market, to win a 4th.

    He’d certainly then be considered a great! The fact he’s gone chasing should not go against him.

  5. #545
    Professional Fat Jockey Hurricane fly's Avatar
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    Altior has never had a win as visibly impressive as Sprinters Melling Chase win

    However part of that is their racing style, Altior would power away from the last where as Sprinter would just annihilate his opposition from 3 our making everything look alonmore impressive.

    Fully fit Altior vs Douvan jumping the last 2 festivals ago would have been a dream

  6. #546
    Fat Jockey (ridden out claim) ELEGANTLY TASTED's Avatar
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    Viking Flagship was better than any of them in my opinion. His toughness and will to win was immense. He had an insane 73 races under rules compare that to Altiors 23 races, Sprinter Sacres 24 races and Master Minded 28 races.

    The ratings may not say that Viking Flagship was the best of all time but there has never been one tougher than him and thats why for me he is the best of all time. Or at least the best that I ever watched.
    Last edited by ELEGANTLY TASTED; 12-15-2019 at 07:51 AM.

  7. #547
    Fat Jockey (ridden out claim) Humble Pie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ELEGANTLY TASTED View Post
    Viking Flagship was better than any of them in my opinion. His toughness and will to win was immense. He had an insane 73 races under rules compare that to Altiors 23 races, Sprinter Sacres 24 races and Master Minded 28 races.

    The ratings may not say that Viking Flagship was the best of all time but there has never been one tougher than him and thats why for me he is the best of all time. Or at least the best that I ever watched.
    For me all this shit about who was/is the best is subjective, end of .
    OR are slated by many on here, believe on your eye , form your own opinion.

    On Viking Flagship could not agree with you more
    Loved the Horse .

    When he set sail for home it was a sight to behold
    Happy happy memories

  8. #548
    Professional Fat Jockey archie's Avatar
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    And, of course, there's only one horse to win the Champion Chase by a distance.


  9. #549
    Professional Fat Jockey (Moderator) Istabraq's Avatar
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    Remmitance Man never gets mentioned in any all time best 2 mile chaser but he was a beast of a horse until Mick Fitzgerald somehow managed to get the best jumper in training to fall with a second champion chase at his mercy, he was never the same after.
    Stunning jumper of a fence....

  10. #550
    Fat Jockey (ridden out claim) Humble Pie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by archie View Post
    And, of course, there's only one horse to win the Champion Chase by a distance.

    Thanks Archie great viewing !

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