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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurricane fly View Post
    Sprinter won the Melling in what was the greatest performance I’ve seen in my short time following racing
    I'd honestly put his return CC win above the Melling peformance, what a horse though. Was watching the Supreme in which SS, Cue Card and Al Ferof fought it out. Also wonder how good a horse Spirit Son would have been.

    When im talking about going up in trip I'm talking about the Gold Cup route not SS winning over2m4
    Last edited by luisgarciaisgod; 03-30-2019 at 03:59 PM.

  2. #22
    Champion Fat Jockey (Moderator) Kevloaf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luisgarciaisgod View Post
    No i really don't. I'd rather see Altior win two more Champion Chases and write himself into the record books as the best 2 mile chaser of all time.

    I always revert back to Azerttyioup when people bring up this suggestion, people did it with Sprinter Sacre and now they're doing it with Altior. I honestly think that Azerttyioup was better than both Sprinter Sacre and Altior but when they stepped him up in trip for that King George it ruined the horse and he never recovered.

    I do sometimes think people sometimes forget just how hard a race a Gold Cup is, horses like Imperial Commander, Bobs Worth and Coneygree were never the same after winning their respective Gold Cups, even Denman despite that heroic Hennesey win and being placed twice never recovered after that win in 08.

    Going back to Sprinter Sacre, they resisted the temptation to send him further and he went out on top as a superstar. Personally I hope to see Altior go out the same way
    Quote Originally Posted by quevega View Post
    Not a fan of the races ruin horses theory myself.
    I’d like to see Altior tested and at 2 miles nothing has really done so.
    Maybe cyrname at sandown
    If Altior was being tested and the 2 mile chase divison was superb, then perhaps I'd be less excited by the prospect...

    ...but it isn't.... and to be fair Cyrname and Altior in the King George make that (at this incredibly early stage) the race I'm most excited about next season at the moment...

  3. #23
    Champion Fat Jockey (Moderator) Kevloaf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luisgarciaisgod View Post
    I'd honestly put his return CC win above the Melling peformance, what a horse though. Was watching the Supreme in which SS, Cue Card and Al Ferof fought it out. Also wonder how good a horse Spirit Son would have been
    Let me change the question then to move the discussion on...

    How do you feel about each of these horses stepping up in trip:


    Kauto Star
    Apple's Jade
    Buveur D'air
    Vautour
    Cue Card
    Dawn Run


    What my reply will be, is that although none of these were exceptional 2 milers like you can argue Altior is, "technically" on the figures, Altior isn't either, he's just in a weak division - and he may be a better horse up in trip like SOME of the above are. Similar to Buveur D'air? The difference with Buveur D'air is, no-one cares if he can stay 3 miles ovr hurdles

    Would Vautour or Kauto Star have won the Champion Chases that Altior has? You'd really, really think so (bar falls) wouldn't you?

    They could have been "great 2 milers".... but isn't it better that we know they are great horses rather than stuck in one box?
    Last edited by Kevloaf; 03-30-2019 at 01:26 PM.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevloaf View Post
    Let me change the question then to move the discussion on...

    How do you feel about each of these horses stepping up in trip:


    Kauto Star
    Apple's Jade
    Buveur D'air
    Vautour
    Cue Card
    Dawn Run


    What my reply will be, is that although none of these were exceptional 2 milers like you can argue Altior is, "technically" on the figures, Altior isn't either, he's just in a weak division - and he may be a better horse up in trip like SOME of the above are. Similar to Buveur D'air? The difference with Buveur D'air is, no-one cares if he can stay 3 miles ovr hurdles

    Would Vautour or Kauto Star have won the Champion Chases that Altior has? You'd really, really think so (bar falls) wouldn't you?

    They could have been "great 2 milers".... but isn't it better that we know they are great horses rather than stuck in one box?
    Kauto Star was stepped up because he wasn't an outstanding 2m chaser, he went off favourite for the CC more on his reputation and he fell. Sure what's the harm in stepping him up, he hasn't won anything. Would he have won the CC's that Altior won? I don't know but he didn't win the one he partticipated in, which was weaker then the two Altior won

    I thought it was madness Apples Jade going the CH route, always felt that she wanted further then to go back in trip. Would haved liked her to run in the Stayers. Nevertheless she lost in the Mares last year so what's the harm in finding a new trip for her. It's not like she had won a championship race

    What's the point in Buvair D'air going up? There's none. Still more Champion Hurdles to be won. There's also no clamouring for him to go up either, unlike Altior

    Vatour never won a 2m champion chase at Cheltenham, he won a Supreme, JLT and won a Ryaner after Cue Card done him at Kempton. If he couldn't get the KG distance he was never going to win a GC. Correct decision running him in that Ryanair. Didn't win a Championship Race at the festival. Would Vatour have won the CC's that Altior won? Maybe but considering they sent UDS to go in against SS maybe shows how they felt about Vatour over 2m. Remember they also sidestepped it the year Dodging Bullets to go novice chasing. Are Dodging Bullets and Un De Sceaux much better then than Min or Politilogue are now?

    Cue Card won a bumper but had finished 4th in a supreme and 2nd in an arkle. Couldn't win at 2m so run him further, won a very good Ryanair but that wasn't a Championship race so went futher and he failed, twice. Never won a Championship race at the festival.

    Dawn Run I can't answer for, I've never seen her Champion Hurdle win or anything other then the closing stages of her Gold Cup win. I wasn't alive then so i don't know the circumstances in her going up.

    So only Buvair D'air is the one I'd say leave her be. I've never heard any clamouring for her to go The Stayers and there's no need because he's probably the best 2m hurdler still around. Altior is the chasing equivilant, whats the point?

    No problem with horses going up and down in trip especially when they don't look like they completely get the trip or the opposition is better and there'd be better chances elsewhere. Desert Orchid was tried at everything short of a 6f sprint at Dundalk on a Friday night before he went 3m chasing, he stayed there. One Man finally won a Championship Race at 2m after being sent over 3m for so long. John Hales said he regretted not dropping him back in trip from day 1 and be aimed at 2m Chases from thereone in, obviously he couldn't forsee what happened at Aintree

    If a horse has his optimium trip and is incredibly successful, why change?
    Last edited by luisgarciaisgod; 03-30-2019 at 04:23 PM.

  5. #25
    Champion Fat Jockey (Moderator) Kevloaf's Avatar
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    "If a horse has his optimium trip and is incredibly successful, why change?"



    How do you know 2 miles is Altior's optimum trip?




    I'll reply to the others a bit later
    Last edited by Kevloaf; 03-30-2019 at 05:03 PM.

  6. #26
    Stable Fat Jockey Old Vic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luisgarciaisgod View Post
    I'd honestly put his return CC win above the Melling peformance, what a horse though. Was watching the Supreme in which SS, Cue Card and Al Ferof fought it out. Also wonder how good a horse Spirit Son would have been.

    When im talking about going up in trip I'm talking about the Gold Cup route not SS winning over2m4
    Spirit Son is one of the great unknowns

    FWIW I think Sprinter at Newbury setting track record has to be in best evers.

    If it’s a top 3 two of the other best performances I have ever seen were Mastermindeds champion chase and Moscow’s last Melling. Another great unknown is Moscow not stepping up in his final year.

  7. #27
    Fat Jockey (ridden out claim) Stormez's Avatar
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    They’ll be rating Min higher than Altior now :disgust:

  8. #28
    Champion Fat Jockey (Moderator) Kevloaf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormez View Post
    They’ll be rating Min higher than Altior now :disgust:
    Gutted he didn't run in the Ryanair to be honest.

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